Spirit of NKS
04-15-2009, 11:06 AM
#332
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Admiral's club lounge
Posts: 631
Taylorjets- I'm not attacking you, but you said something interesting. You said we need to know the facts before we vote. The "PREPARE" stuff was supposed to whip us into a frenzy. They stopped putting it out, so I don't know the whole C9, but I think it was even worse than what I read about it.
The main things in my mind are the facts that the company wants to basically make this an at will job. Even eliminating non economic stuff like the HIMS program and PRO STANS, will make this a job where if the company doesn't like you they can get rid of you without any reason. It will make this not a place I want to work, economy or no economy. Even the senior guys (you know the golden 50) now realize that they are vulnerable to this kind of wholesale destruction and many of them are now rethinking their positions.
To me the facts are
-the company arbitrarily changed the wheel roll (the way we get paid)
-tried to take away 4 days off
-stalls at every negotiating meeting with either no proposal or something rediculous
-was told by the mediator to "get off the BS" because of their tactics
-Tried to make us pay for our own hotels during training
-the C9 proposal is not the basis for an agreement (I beleive that is bad faith)
we'll see about that one
-capt upgrades based on "who's in the club"
-seniority based on who will ***** themselves out more
-last year NOI's went out to legitimate sick calls
etc, etc
My point is the company has shown to me how the they see and treat its pilot group with a contract, I would hate to see how they would treat everyone without a contract. Our mgmt is nothing like Jet BLue. And you better believe that when a captain hits a certain seniority pay amount, they will be targeted with termination to "keep expenses low". This is what the senior guys are starting to realize. A strike vote is the only weapon we have to end this gravy train that mgmt is riding.
At my last job, we were in the same situation, and when the 30 days came and went, we did nothing. Didn't strike, and the company was so nervous about the airplanes being left at outstations, that they grounded the fleet for 72 hrs and we got almost everything we asked for. They lost almost as much in revenue as we were asking for.
Just the threat of a strike to a company is hard on ticket sales, and that would be significant pressure on one with fares as low as ours.
Just one more thing, and I don't mean to pick on you, that is not my intent, but you said we're "only" 2 years past our amendable date. Quoting a famous TV doctor who rhymes with DR. Shmil, you teach people how to treat you. Letting them think that it's ok to drag this on, we are enabling (emboldening)them to do just that. They will not up their costs until they are forced to.
Again, I am not attacking you, just getting some lively debate going.
The main things in my mind are the facts that the company wants to basically make this an at will job. Even eliminating non economic stuff like the HIMS program and PRO STANS, will make this a job where if the company doesn't like you they can get rid of you without any reason. It will make this not a place I want to work, economy or no economy. Even the senior guys (you know the golden 50) now realize that they are vulnerable to this kind of wholesale destruction and many of them are now rethinking their positions.
To me the facts are
-the company arbitrarily changed the wheel roll (the way we get paid)
-tried to take away 4 days off
-stalls at every negotiating meeting with either no proposal or something rediculous
-was told by the mediator to "get off the BS" because of their tactics
-Tried to make us pay for our own hotels during training
-the C9 proposal is not the basis for an agreement (I beleive that is bad faith)
we'll see about that one
-capt upgrades based on "who's in the club"
-seniority based on who will ***** themselves out more
-last year NOI's went out to legitimate sick calls
etc, etc
My point is the company has shown to me how the they see and treat its pilot group with a contract, I would hate to see how they would treat everyone without a contract. Our mgmt is nothing like Jet BLue. And you better believe that when a captain hits a certain seniority pay amount, they will be targeted with termination to "keep expenses low". This is what the senior guys are starting to realize. A strike vote is the only weapon we have to end this gravy train that mgmt is riding.
At my last job, we were in the same situation, and when the 30 days came and went, we did nothing. Didn't strike, and the company was so nervous about the airplanes being left at outstations, that they grounded the fleet for 72 hrs and we got almost everything we asked for. They lost almost as much in revenue as we were asking for.
Just the threat of a strike to a company is hard on ticket sales, and that would be significant pressure on one with fares as low as ours.
Just one more thing, and I don't mean to pick on you, that is not my intent, but you said we're "only" 2 years past our amendable date. Quoting a famous TV doctor who rhymes with DR. Shmil, you teach people how to treat you. Letting them think that it's ok to drag this on, we are enabling (emboldening)them to do just that. They will not up their costs until they are forced to.
Again, I am not attacking you, just getting some lively debate going.
I think a lot of you guys are getting me wrong. I like my job, union, and although I see a lot of things going on I do not agree with, I have the right to speak my opinion, and I do...In the crew room, cockpit, and union meetings. Yes, I have been to almost all of them.
I have never said anything about voting no. And do I intend to??? That is my business and my vote. I will say however that I intend on supporting my fellow pilots, as I have in the past volunteering for union positions and letting the MEC do their job as they see fit. They have a right to do that...After all they were voted in by us.
Here is what I did say, and I know it’s too late, but again, it is my opinion. Left handed stated what the company wanted to do with work rules, pay, etc... I stated that we should defend our current contract. I also stated that we become equippted with resources for better educating our group, as "Prepare" was not enough in my opinion. If we cannot defend this contract what makes you think we can defend a new one? I would have rather seen us protect our current CBA, rather than settle for a subpar raise, traded for work rules and quality of life. I also think that this vote is premature by way of a horrible economy, reduced flying and loads industry wide. I think patience will benefit us in the long run. But that is not the case...Tomorrow I will vote.. To my union brothers and sisters, and all others in this industry,... I will cast my ballot in favor of our pilot group and ALPA's agenda.
Again, in my opinion... If acheiving a yes vote that is over 60/40 was important, how come the union did not start making calls to answer questions and rally support? The Strike vote letter was emailed a day ago, and now we vote tomorrow. Now tell me that is not rushing it...
Last edited by taylorjets; 04-15-2009 at 12:39 PM.
04-15-2009, 01:30 PM
#333
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: A320
Posts: 61
"Again, in my opinion... If acheiving a yes vote that is over 60/40 was important, how come the union did not start making calls to answer questions and rally support? The Strike vote letter was emailed a day ago, and now we vote tomorrow. Now tell me that is not rushing it..."
It looks like your questions have been answered in the form of another Prepare. It addresses calls to every pilot, the vote's open until May 11th and has the entire contract 9000 proposal.
Check it out.
It looks like your questions have been answered in the form of another Prepare. It addresses calls to every pilot, the vote's open until May 11th and has the entire contract 9000 proposal.
Check it out.
04-16-2009, 04:15 PM
#334
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 501
Contract 9000 is insulting. They took Mesa's contract, made a photocopy of it and stamped the front page with "Spirit Airlines". Truly outrageous.
We got to send a clear message to these clowns...
We got to send a clear message to these clowns...
04-16-2009, 04:29 PM
#335
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 647
I bring the tires and the matches
04-16-2009, 07:52 PM
#336
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 163
After reading contract 9000 there is no doubt management deserves to be smacked up the side of the head. I vote to burn the place down!
04-17-2009, 06:43 AM
#337
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 647
Let me ask. What are we asking precisely for our new contract? What does better pay mean? Do we have actual figures? I always felt a little bit in the dark regarding this.
04-17-2009, 03:58 PM
#338
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: Bus Right
Posts: 13
I'd say better pay would be 20-25% more for First Officers and at least 13-15% more for captains. There is a huge pay disparity between us and our peers and that is what needs to be fixed. We can't depend on the airline growing and everyone upgrading in the next couple of years no matter what they tell us. We need a wage where First Officers can make a decent living as well.
04-17-2009, 04:19 PM
#339
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 320 Left soon middle
Posts: 488
I'd say better pay would be 20-25% more for First Officers and at least 13-15% more for captains. There is a huge pay disparity between us and our peers and that is what needs to be fixed. We can't depend on the airline growing and everyone upgrading in the next couple of years no matter what they tell us. We need a wage where First Officers can make a decent living as well.
I think that above in a nutshell would be fair. Not great! Nope. Just fair. At least it would not put downward pressure on other airline's rates that are and have been higher, and that is after their 9/11 paycuts. Of course with our 28 (now 27?) fleet I doubt anyone really cares how much NK pilots make, except for NK pilots. Ohhh wait.. it seems even we don't care.
Last edited by Normann; 04-18-2009 at 06:57 AM.
04-17-2009, 06:52 PM
#340
On Reserve
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: Bus Right
Posts: 13
I am sorry but that is still way too low. 20-25% CA increase is the least and stick the FO pay to the CA rate for good. 60% or whatever is industry standard. Never negotiate them separate ever again. Top out at year 12 as most places. Yearly adjustments for actual inflation. Inflation could be very bad for the next few years. We could lose everything we have negotiated within 3 year if it hits double digits and we don't get adjusted for it. they will have no problem jacking up ticket prices. Apart inflation add some fair 1-2% step up each year past contract so they have no incentive to drag every CBA out. And if they do at least our pay does not hurt.
I think that above in a nutshell would be fair. Not great! Nope. Just fair. At least it would not put downward pressure on other airline's rates that are and have been higher, and that is after their 9/11 paycuts. Of course with our 28 (now 27?) fleet I doubt anyone really cares how much NK pilots make, except for NK pilots. Ohhh wait.. it seems even we don't care.
I think that above in a nutshell would be fair. Not great! Nope. Just fair. At least it would not put downward pressure on other airline's rates that are and have been higher, and that is after their 9/11 paycuts. Of course with our 28 (now 27?) fleet I doubt anyone really cares how much NK pilots make, except for NK pilots. Ohhh wait.. it seems even we don't care.
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