Originally Posted by Halon1211

one good hope for the future of ULCC is that the USA’s middle classes will continue to shrink as the rich get richer and the poor get poorer..

Originally Posted by 187Breezy

You've had a lot of responses on this, let me add a few more thoughts as someone who made the same jump (LE to airlines) 2.5 years ago. I'm a little older than you but you're old enough to be more or less in the same boat. You can likely remember when LE was a dream job and something that you really looked forward to doing, now it's just a job. Airline flying will be the same thing- eventually it will settle in to being just a job. Granted its a job that I really enjoy, but it has it's downsides like any job. Just be prepared for that when the honeymoon period wears off.

Drama? You're going to find that in any line of work. It's less so than at the PD but it's still there. There are a lot of 25 year old kids (I'm at a regional, but the LLCs are not far behind that curve) on their first job and fresh out of mommy's basement, who think they know everything there is to know. There are crusty old timers who hate everything in the world including themselves. There's everything in between. Mix them all together and there is going to be some drama. That said 90% of the people I work with are great, even the CAs that I fly with who are barely old enough to be my kids. When I walk into the crew room and close my eyes it sounds like I'm right back in the squad room- same personalities, same loud voices *****ing about the contract, the union, management, blah blah blah. The environment felt strangely familiar the first time I walked in the door.

Speaking of home- you're going to be home less since you'll be on the road for between 3-6 days at a time, with 3-5 days off in between (rough average.) Make sure that the family can handle that. Now here's the upside- when you are home, you are truly home, fully present and not stressed. For most of my LE career I had jobs that were 24/7/365 on call, so even your off time is never fully your own. Plus you bring home all the stress and issues from the job (read Dr. Gilmartin's book if you haven't.) At the airline, once you set the brake at the end of a trip and go home, you are truly off duty. I don't take any stress home, I don't need a day to decompress, I don't answer a phone on my days off, I don't think about work much at all until it's time to go back for my next trip. In other words, the quality of time that you are home is much better. This can be a big deal in some families.

Training- the training model at the airlines is very similar to that in LE. You show up on day one and come out the other end as a newly type-rated pilot who knows your company books inside and out. Just like a fresh academy graduate, you know everything and nothing at the same time. You then go through a period of field training (we call it IOE or some variation) where a seasoned FTO-type teaches you how to apply all that knowledge "on the street." You then go back for periodic refresher/ in-service training to practice skills that you are likely to never need in real like, but nevertheless need to keep sharp. Most pilots go their entire career without a real engine failure, just like most cops go their entire career without firing a shot in anger. But both of them must maintain those skills just in case today becomes "that day."

While we're on training, think about this when you're looking at ways of building your time. Buying yourself 1000 hours in a 152 is one way to get it done, but what is the quality of that experience? I'd guide you towards actual flying employment where you will get some real world experience in the big-boy IFR system. Airlines expect you to show up on day with with this background, and without it you will really struggle. I work part time in the training dept at my airline and I see this with new hires. The more real world experience you have the better prepared you will be. Not to mention, the older you get the more calcified your brain becomes and the harder it is to absorb new material. You're not that old yet but old enough that you will start to notice that when you "drink from the fire hose."

You mentioned looking at specific airlines based on their proximity to your home and the ability to drive to work. I think that is a great plan- being able to drive to work and not have the added stress of commuting (via airline) to work is a huge quality of life factor. The standard caveats apply- bases come and go so you have to do your research. Some bases are more secure than others, and what is plan B if your base closes.

There are some folks who will tell you that you haven't succeeded unless/ until you have a job at a legacy. Hogwash. I think you have the right idea of finding a mid-level job and settling in, if it balances out the money/ family/ QOL equation. Hell I'm at a regional and I'm pretty content- upgrading soon and will be making pretty good money (better than I ever did at the PD) and driving to work. With single digits of years left, I may well just ride it out where I am (assuming my company still exists, which is always a gamble.) There is very little that is certain or stable in this business. Like you I got back in to aviation after getting out in leaner times (early 90s) and I settled in to LE with its job security. One of my favorite comparisons is this- LE is a great career, but it's a lousy job. Airline flying is a great job but it's a lousy career. You've seen enough in LE to know the difference.

Originally Posted by razorseal

This was great. and a great perspective for me. I'm going to send you a PM, maybe we can talk more about this on the phone if you have time.

There are def upsides of my job.

• I work in a good town and very friendly.
• I have a decent retirement that I can collect 70% of my highest salary at age 52 (14 years). It goes up 3% every year. If I leave now, I get about 33% at 52 until I die.
• I do (most of the time) come home every night. I am (most of the time) well liked and noticed that I'm a hard worker.
• We have some of the coolest toys. UTV, ATV, boat, jetski, other things I can't remember
• I've gone to some very cool trainings
• I've done alot and learned alot.
• Close to home. 30 minutes to get to work, and I get a vehicle to take home so barely put miles on my own car (which can be taken away at any time if they want to for any reason)
• Predictable schedule (more on this in cons)
• lots of sick time and vacation time.

Here are some downsides...

• I am pretty much topped out. Even if I make chief in 10 years, I will be making less than what a captain makes year 1.
• There is A LOT of drama here. I can't imagine aviation having this much. At least according to few buddies who were cops that got back into aviation (who pushed me to get back into)
• The competition for promotion is fierce. It's not seniority based. if you wanna work your way up, you will be fighting people trying to jam you up or make you look bad as they get close to higher ups and in their favor.
• Both careers are dangerous, but I have no idea if I'm going to my last call and get killed.
• People want to kill you and hate you
• People are recording you with cameras, intentionally trying to jam you up
• I am on call 24/7 pretty much. We don't get a work cell phone, or allowance, so my wife MADE me get a 2nd phone, so I can leave the phone I use for work at home when we have family events. I pretty much have to always do something on my day off. On vacation, I bring my work laptop with me because I'm gonna be needed to do something (I do alot of admin stuff, such as training, audits, accreditation, hiring interviews, etc)
• This job causes me to bring work home. Especially the stress, and guess who I vent to. my wife... lol
• I have a set schedule, but it's subject to change at anytime. I guess not really a con because most jobs in life your schedule might change, but it happens based on attitude and politics here. I can be on days for years, and something happens, you go where you don't want to go.

Now these things are things I've just been used to. I've learned to live with it. Like I said, I work for a good agency and the town is great. We get all the toys. I can ride the ATV, UTV, get on the boat with a marine unit, ride the jet ski, patrol.... I mean who wouldn't want to get paid riding a jet ski for work? I'm doing a detail right now, sitting in my car at the beach, watching the scenery and making sure nobody does anything stupid. What a dream. and it's a beautiful beach.

But the negatives add up and you can decide if you were in my shoes.

I do agree with the cessna thing. There are no jobs for a pilot with 400TT unfortunetly, so I might do this tropic airways idea which will introduce me to FLL, 135 operations, scheduled flights and some turbine time (albeit single). It's on of the options. I'm looking at alternatives. I do not want to CFI though.

Even considered getting ATP-CTP along with a biz jet type rating afater I get the hours and use GI Bill to pay for 60% of it.

Thee are many ways to go about this.

Originally Posted by Born2FlyAv8R

I also made the deal from LE January of last year. I’m going to send you a PM, it looks like a lot of your hesitations and concerns similar to mine.

Originally Posted by razorseal

Originally Posted by Tom a Hawk

Razor,

Thank you for your service to our country and your community. 12 years is a good time in that industry and it’s awesome you get some sort of pension later in life even if you quit now. You’ve got 27(or more) years ahead of you in aviation. There’s three sections of an airline pilot career. 1: Training, you’ve already done most of it but need to blow out the cobwebs and finish. 2: Transition/Experience Building, this is the part that does actually have some drama and bull**** involved, but is the time when you make yourself into the pilot you want to be. 3. “The Good Job”, honestly it’s extremely easy and low drama if you want.

It’s helpful to know and understand a variety of other peoples paths in this career so you have reference for your own. I finished my ratings in 2007 and started instructing in 2008. 2.5 years of instructing, 2.5 at one turboprop regional, 1.5 at another, 10 years at JetBlue. I stayed in when you got out, I’m your same age and did the low pay thing. The first 4 years flying for a living I made 25k or less a year, the next 3 I made 40-50k a year, and I didn’t cross 100k until my tenth. This is year 16, I’m on track for 260k on only 200 hours of block(long call reserve). Like I said, it’s incredibly easy at the top, but it takes some time to get there.

Now some advice. You still have to do section 1. Get a good instructor, focus on becoming a great pilot, be expedient with the commercial certificate but don’t put yourself on as few hours as possible to get ready. Failed checkrides are not good. Get your multi commercial too. Section 2 hasn’t changed much from when you last left aviation other than it has potential to be much shorter and pay a bit more. It took me 6 years to get from commercial certificate to major airline job and for you that could be 2-3. The Tropic SIC job looks like a great opportunity. Even though I enjoyed instructing, I would have jumped at the chance to do that type of job before the regional. Did you get answers from your call with them? What’s their pay and how many hours a year can you expect? Even if you are unable to get directly to a major from there, if they’re able to get you to ATP mins quickly and then you do a stint at a jet regional that’s still good. You’re filling that variety of experience that’s going to make you a great pilot.

Like I said it was the tenth year before I made 100k, but you have the potential to be doing that in the right seat at JetBlue/Spirit or AA, driving to work in 2026 or 2027. It sounds like you already know you want a career change and you have a great option in flying, so go for it. I do want to know more about tropic.

Originally Posted by razorseal

after I had made this post, I ran into a person while having lunch with my crew at work. he overheard me talking about piloting and came and introduced himself. He is a training captain / check airmen for a 135 charter company that flies hawker jets. he gave me his info and we became friends. He told me to get to 1000 hours and he will get me a FO job as a hawker pilot. He also told me once I get my CPL/MEL at around 500 hours, on part 91 flights (he said when on a contract) he can bring me along as a FO/SIC and get me trained on the jet and get me my SIC type rating. I trust this works out for me because it will be an amazing opportunity. He is also CFII and said he will gladly get me current and train me for IFR without charging me.

Originally Posted by Sliceback

This "amazing opportunity" would be a poor choice unless they fly 700-800 hrs, or more, a year *IF* your goal is to get to a a major airline. It's not what "amazing opportunity" you get offered it's about which choice gets you to match up with the candidates getting hired at the airlines (assuming that's your goal as it's the best paying and also offers the most time off. Not flying but on standby isn't completely 'time off'. Buddy's son was dragging his feet about getting his CFI. Pursued his MEL because he had several offers to fly bigger/nicer jets than a Hawker, as well as a King Air 350, once he had 500 TT. Cost him 1-1.5 (?) years of CFI time that would have had him at a regional already?? Instead it looks like he'll be at a regional next spring. Maybe a net loss of 6 months to get to a regional? If it ultimately costs him 6 months of longevity at his final job Hell be out $175,000+ for the 6 month delay. Which jet offer to he take once he got 500 TT? Flying a job that gets him to the regionals ASAP - a Cessna getting 1200+ hrs a year. Looks like he'll go from 500 hrs to 1450 in about 8 months. I think he realized the 'cool' job that does fly his brains out isn't worth it. The highest flying job, even if it's in a Piper Cub, is the path to achieving his goal of getting to a major airline career. If the Piper Cub gets him there 6 months sooner it's the same as being paid $30,000 a month (paid off at the end of his career) vis taking the 'cool' job now. Every job offer that slows your advancement towards your ultimate goal, be it by not flying much OR via a training contract that delays your departure, isn't being offered in your best interest. It's being done in their best interest at your expense.

Originally Posted by razorseal

Yup, I learned this between posting that and now as well. Apparently corporate guys get 200 hours or so a year. at that rate I won't make it where I need to be anywhere fast.

I'm leaning back towards going with a low paying caravan job that'll get me 100 hours a month and busting ass. Yeah they have contracts... I guess I'll deal with that bridge when I get there. I can supplement income with teaching at the police academy.

I could be in the regionals (or even major?) within a year. I really would like to fly for jet blue or spirit however. home based in FLL, flying an Airbus. what a dream