JetBlue merger
09-16-2023, 10:13 AM
#142
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2018
Posts: 461
I read through the comparison and JB has some good nuggets. The problem I have with it is that it doesn’t paint a picture of how each contract affects everyday life.
i.e. I flew with a CA who’s been at Spirit for 5 years and averages 30k/month since he credits 100-115 credits on reserve (pretty much the norm for CAs on reserve it seems like).
Doing some basic research on limited available resource, JB pilots tend to make more per year (something like 20k more?), but NK pilots work about 30ish days less a year.
The money to days off tend to balance out at the end of the year
i.e. I flew with a CA who’s been at Spirit for 5 years and averages 30k/month since he credits 100-115 credits on reserve (pretty much the norm for CAs on reserve it seems like).
Doing some basic research on limited available resource, JB pilots tend to make more per year (something like 20k more?), but NK pilots work about 30ish days less a year.
The money to days off tend to balance out at the end of the year
09-16-2023, 10:24 AM
#143
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 170
Doesn't Jetblue have a CBA requirement to build a pairing mix that satisfies commuting and live in base pilots? At Spirit year they pulled the Frontier model and moved a majority of our pairings to 1-2-3 day length.
No hotels in training for Spirit recurrent unless you are based in a city with no simulator. Multiple training locations so Spirit can avoid paying for hotels and they never allow one to bid out of base training locations in Navblue.
Zero hotels for commuting purposes and I never heard our MEC bring up positive space commuting during 2020 when many other airlines were providing an option.
4 hours of credit per training day, but the instructors get 5.5 hours and most do doubles so a 12 hour duty day pays 11 hours.
Draw your own conclusions where the priorities lie.
No hotels in training for Spirit recurrent unless you are based in a city with no simulator. Multiple training locations so Spirit can avoid paying for hotels and they never allow one to bid out of base training locations in Navblue.
Zero hotels for commuting purposes and I never heard our MEC bring up positive space commuting during 2020 when many other airlines were providing an option.
4 hours of credit per training day, but the instructors get 5.5 hours and most do doubles so a 12 hour duty day pays 11 hours.
Draw your own conclusions where the priorities lie.
09-16-2023, 10:24 AM
#144
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,905
09-16-2023, 10:25 AM
#145
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,918
Yeah, I probably should not post late at night sometimes.... What I do want is not having to fly with people that are disgruntled. Based on past mergers it will probably a case of equally unhappy more than equally happy as a best case. These mergers don't bring out the best in us (me). So yes, I throw back, when I see grenades flying. I don't see this merger as an improvement for the NK people. But, with the latest financials, I don't really see a good path forward for NK alone either.
The E190 thing? Every merger will have a date that will be used for the SLI. I know the date used for the AA/VA merger specifically excluded the higher future planned growth of VA, compared to AA. So yeah, I think it is a relevant question. Do I think it harms JB in an unfair way to ask that? I would definitely be ashamed if my union asked for a better spot on the SLI on the basis of us getting your pay rates, because we only would get those based on the merger so we should not get anything for that. But, depending on the SLI reference date, if you still have E190s I think it is fair to take those into account. The A220 is different, as it pays better than our A320, so that would not hold water.
But let me ask you this. Since the merger was announced we have added 20% more pilots, which was planned. Based on ASM JB has added about 7% as planned (correct me if I am wrong). How would you feel if we took those planned new-hires into account to calculate my RS compared to yours for SLI integration? It is really easy to make disingenuous arguments sound logical....
Commute policy:
It would take me at least 2-3 hours extra per trip to have to comply with your policy compared to ours. I often have 2 options that leave at the same time from different terminals. If the loads look good on both (and they always do because I am senior enough to commute against the traffic flow) it is a legal commute for me, but not for you. And there is never any question if I wouldn't make it. But I haven't missed a commute yet.
NK:
A pilot commuting to duty shall plan for a minimum of two separate flights that will arrive at his domicile in advance of his normal report time. If the first flight is oversold, delayed, or canceled, or if the pilot is denied a jumpseat or boarding for any reason, he shall notify Crew Scheduling as soon as practical.
A pilot who keeps accurate records of his scheduled commuter flights and otherwise complies with the provisions of this commuter policy shall not be subject to discipline for missing trip pairings due to denied boarding. A pilot may use the commuter policy as necessary with no limitations.
JB:
a. A commuting Pilot not reporting on time for required duty must be able to verify he was present and listed (a digital record of a CASS listing satisfies this requirement) on two (2) consecutive flights and both were scheduled to arrive in sufficient time to allow him to report on time (a commute with two (2) or more legs is considered one (1) flight for the purpose of this Section). Being rolled over from one flight to the next on the same airline satisfies this requirement.
c. Adequate time between different flights that depart from different ends of the same airport must be taken into consideration by the Pilot.
d. Additional travel time should be taken into consideration by the Pilot on days with adverse weather conditions.
e. Travel time between arrival terminals must be taken into consideration by the Pilot.
Commuting Strategy
A commuting Pilot who complies with the requirements of this Section shall not be subject to discipline based on missed commute unless there is evidence that the mis-commutes are the result of inadequate planning by the Pilot. A Chief Pilot may discuss patterns of commuting problems with the Pilot in an effort to resolve such issues by identifying the source of the problem and assisting in developing alternative commuting strategies. Repeated mis-commutes may be considered in evaluations of a commuting Pilot’s overall dependability.
The E190 thing? Every merger will have a date that will be used for the SLI. I know the date used for the AA/VA merger specifically excluded the higher future planned growth of VA, compared to AA. So yeah, I think it is a relevant question. Do I think it harms JB in an unfair way to ask that? I would definitely be ashamed if my union asked for a better spot on the SLI on the basis of us getting your pay rates, because we only would get those based on the merger so we should not get anything for that. But, depending on the SLI reference date, if you still have E190s I think it is fair to take those into account. The A220 is different, as it pays better than our A320, so that would not hold water.
But let me ask you this. Since the merger was announced we have added 20% more pilots, which was planned. Based on ASM JB has added about 7% as planned (correct me if I am wrong). How would you feel if we took those planned new-hires into account to calculate my RS compared to yours for SLI integration? It is really easy to make disingenuous arguments sound logical....
Commute policy:
It would take me at least 2-3 hours extra per trip to have to comply with your policy compared to ours. I often have 2 options that leave at the same time from different terminals. If the loads look good on both (and they always do because I am senior enough to commute against the traffic flow) it is a legal commute for me, but not for you. And there is never any question if I wouldn't make it. But I haven't missed a commute yet.
NK:
A pilot commuting to duty shall plan for a minimum of two separate flights that will arrive at his domicile in advance of his normal report time. If the first flight is oversold, delayed, or canceled, or if the pilot is denied a jumpseat or boarding for any reason, he shall notify Crew Scheduling as soon as practical.
A pilot who keeps accurate records of his scheduled commuter flights and otherwise complies with the provisions of this commuter policy shall not be subject to discipline for missing trip pairings due to denied boarding. A pilot may use the commuter policy as necessary with no limitations.
JB:
a. A commuting Pilot not reporting on time for required duty must be able to verify he was present and listed (a digital record of a CASS listing satisfies this requirement) on two (2) consecutive flights and both were scheduled to arrive in sufficient time to allow him to report on time (a commute with two (2) or more legs is considered one (1) flight for the purpose of this Section). Being rolled over from one flight to the next on the same airline satisfies this requirement.
c. Adequate time between different flights that depart from different ends of the same airport must be taken into consideration by the Pilot.
d. Additional travel time should be taken into consideration by the Pilot on days with adverse weather conditions.
e. Travel time between arrival terminals must be taken into consideration by the Pilot.
Commuting Strategy
A commuting Pilot who complies with the requirements of this Section shall not be subject to discipline based on missed commute unless there is evidence that the mis-commutes are the result of inadequate planning by the Pilot. A Chief Pilot may discuss patterns of commuting problems with the Pilot in an effort to resolve such issues by identifying the source of the problem and assisting in developing alternative commuting strategies. Repeated mis-commutes may be considered in evaluations of a commuting Pilot’s overall dependability.
It's helpful to remember that JB CBA is the first and only full language CBA we have had. We have some good stuff but also need improvement and refinement.
What we have also done in our short history has get the company to agree that our peers for comparison are generally only the upper crust of the industry. Which is also helpful.
09-16-2023, 10:27 AM
#146
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 170
There is a provision in the CBA that only requires 1 flight on company aircraft. But certainly I prefer the NK commute policy.
It's helpful to remember that JB CBA is the first and only full language CBA we have had. We have some good stuff but also need improvement and refinement.
What we have also done in our short history has get the company to agree that our peers for comparison are generally only the upper crust of the industry. Which is also helpful.
It's helpful to remember that JB CBA is the first and only full language CBA we have had. We have some good stuff but also need improvement and refinement.
What we have also done in our short history has get the company to agree that our peers for comparison are generally only the upper crust of the industry. Which is also helpful.
"Ask me about my 4 days off..."
09-16-2023, 10:59 AM
#147
Line holder
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,327
And being guaranteed 4 days off is a very big benefit for junior pilots.
09-16-2023, 11:19 AM
#148
Line holder
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,327
There is a provision in the CBA that only requires 1 flight on company aircraft. But certainly I prefer the NK commute policy.
It's helpful to remember that JB CBA is the first and only full language CBA we have had. We have some good stuff but also need improvement and refinement.
What we have also done in our short history has get the company to agree that our peers for comparison are generally only the upper crust of the industry. Which is also helpful.
It's helpful to remember that JB CBA is the first and only full language CBA we have had. We have some good stuff but also need improvement and refinement.
What we have also done in our short history has get the company to agree that our peers for comparison are generally only the upper crust of the industry. Which is also helpful.
09-16-2023, 11:41 AM
#149
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,905
1) Only paid if flying the 321
or
2) No extra pay for the 321 and the 320 series pays a flat rate.
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