Bluedriver

I very much do not believe there has been a thorough comprehensive contract comparison guide comparing the B6-NK contracts in high detail. But I assume we will as the JCBA process gets closer. Anything less would be a disservice.

Tornado875

I suppose that's fair enough. I remember the highlighted side by side portion the unions put out months ago and I sure can't find the secret sauce that some people claim makes NKs day to day superior to every other airline.

The big picture items I was unimpressed, (with a few notable exceptions), but maybe it's like I tell women "under a microscope it looks huge"

SoFloFlyer

I read through the comparison and JB has some good nuggets. The problem I have with it is that it doesn’t paint a picture of how each contract affects everyday life.

i.e. I flew with a CA who’s been at Spirit for 5 years and averages 30k/month since he credits 100-115 credits on reserve (pretty much the norm for CAs on reserve it seems like).

Doing some basic research on limited available resource, JB pilots tend to make more per year (something like 20k more?), but NK pilots work about 30ish days less a year.

The money to days off tend to balance out at the end of the year

symbian simian

Yeah, I probably should not post late at night sometimes.... What I do want is not having to fly with people that are disgruntled. Based on past mergers it will probably a case of equally unhappy more than equally happy as a best case. These mergers don't bring out the best in us (me). So yes, I throw back, when I see grenades flying. I don't see this merger as an improvement for the NK people. But, with the latest financials, I don't really see a good path forward for NK alone either.

The E190 thing? Every merger will have a date that will be used for the SLI. I know the date used for the AA/VA merger specifically excluded the higher future planned growth of VA, compared to AA. So yeah, I think it is a relevant question. Do I think it harms JB in an unfair way to ask that? I would definitely be ashamed if my union asked for a better spot on the SLI on the basis of us getting your pay rates, because we only would get those based on the merger so we should not get anything for that. But, depending on the SLI reference date, if you still have E190s I think it is fair to take those into account. The A220 is different, as it pays better than our A320, so that would not hold water.
But let me ask you this. Since the merger was announced we have added 20% more pilots, which was planned. Based on ASM JB has added about 7% as planned (correct me if I am wrong). How would you feel if we took those planned new-hires into account to calculate my RS compared to yours for SLI integration? It is really easy to make disingenuous arguments sound logical....

Commute policy:
It would take me at least 2-3 hours extra per trip to have to comply with your policy compared to ours. I often have 2 options that leave at the same time from different terminals. If the loads look good on both (and they always do because I am senior enough to commute against the traffic flow) it is a legal commute for me, but not for you. And there is never any question if I wouldn't make it. But I haven't missed a commute yet.

NK:
A pilot commuting to duty shall plan for a minimum of two separate flights that will arrive at his domicile in advance of his normal report time. If the first flight is oversold, delayed, or canceled, or if the pilot is denied a jumpseat or boarding for any reason, he shall notify Crew Scheduling as soon as practical.
A pilot who keeps accurate records of his scheduled commuter flights and otherwise complies with the provisions of this commuter policy shall not be subject to discipline for missing trip pairings due to denied boarding. A pilot may use the commuter policy as necessary with no limitations.

JB:
a. A commuting Pilot not reporting on time for required duty must be able to verify he was present and listed (a digital record of a CASS listing satisfies this requirement) on two (2) consecutive flights and both were scheduled to arrive in sufficient time to allow him to report on time (a commute with two (2) or more legs is considered one (1) flight for the purpose of this Section). Being rolled over from one flight to the next on the same airline satisfies this requirement.
c. Adequate time between different flights that depart from different ends of the same airport must be taken into consideration by the Pilot.
d. Additional travel time should be taken into consideration by the Pilot on days with adverse weather conditions.
e. Travel time between arrival terminals must be taken into consideration by the Pilot.
Commuting Strategy
A commuting Pilot who complies with the requirements of this Section shall not be subject to discipline based on missed commute unless there is evidence that the mis-commutes are the result of inadequate planning by the Pilot. A Chief Pilot may discuss patterns of commuting problems with the Pilot in an effort to resolve such issues by identifying the source of the problem and assisting in developing alternative commuting strategies. Repeated mis-commutes may be considered in evaluations of a commuting Pilot’s overall dependability.

Tornado875

That's a good point. It would be nice to see hard data on things like that.

Directautogroup

Spirit contract heavily favors living in base. Most of the working the system is hard to replicate commuting. The company has gone to a shorter trip model which is poor for commuting quality of life. Where is the Spirit positive space commuting?

None of this is a surprise as this is a Florida airline managed by an MEC who expend little negotiating capital on commuting issues. Maybe if we didn't spend so much on our world class training department and their pay we could spend on other things.

skitheline

In the most recent survey, I made a point to request commuter QOL improvements. "you choose to commute" Sure do, because not everyone wants to live in Florida or one of our many other large metropolitan bases, but I do love working here so that's what I chose to do. I'd imagine most of the other commuters feel the same. I'd love to see at least a couple of commuter hotels and possibly positive space on own metal. If regionals can provide commuter hotels, I don't see why this would be out of the question for the JCBA of the fifth-largest airline in the US.

Tom a Hawk

hmmm, thanks for posting them both. Pretty interesting. I see what you mean that there are less restrictions in the NK policy, but I have to imagine a lot of it is up for interpretation by a chief anyway. I can’t say I like the second to last sentence in the NK policy because it only says denied boarding, not delayed or cancelled. But I have to say, two flights at the same time still works under the B6 policy. I can usually see loads for both, I go to one and check in with the gate well before boarding, if they don’t have a seat for me or jumpseat assignment I run to the other one and make it before boarding. Adequate planning.

Forward lav

not to mention, JetBlue has positive space commuting, though not codified yet.

Excargodog

Yeah, unless the two flights leave within 15 minutes of one another on opposite sides of the terminal. There are four different majors that I can use for my commuting. It isn’t just as simple as “adequate planning.” I get it, that “commuting is a choice” but with personal complications (relatives, kids schools, working spouse, etc.” and despite the cost of hotels or crashpad for non commutable trips and/or sitting reserve it isn’t necessarily an irrational choice. Commuters accept the fact that they are going to wind up getting the $hitty end of the stick while pulling reserve, etc. Why people who live in base - AND ARE BENEFITTING FROM THAT - sometimes feel the need to make it harder than it needs to be by not supporting the commuting pilots - well, that I’ve never really understood. When we do miss a flight because we are commuters (which so far has happened only one in my 121 career) it either goes to someone on reserve or as premium and either way creates opportunities for those who do live in base. Never understood the angst some people feel about commuters or their reluctance to give them a break in QOL rules.