JetBlue merger
09-15-2023, 06:05 PM
#121
Line holder
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,343
I don't entirely buy the higher rates argument. But you had guys here wanting to classify the E190 as a "super-small-narrowbody" and staple all the E190 JB pilots below all NK narrow body pilots. I didn't see you saying "hey let's play fair" when your own were making that suggestion.
And as I said, the moment you guys got B6 pay rates, you'd be arguing about how your overall CBA was better going into SLI for YOUR advantage. And there may even be some truth to that argument, maybe. So how about we agree that IF you get an immediate B6 rate snap-up only if B6 gets an immediate NK work rule snap-up. All or nothing, we all win or no one wins?
To a certain degree, we are all gonna look after our own until we are one. That's called reality. Some take it further than others. You have NK guys here that want full relative, and think that's fair no matter how it may disadvantage most of B6. You didn't tell them to "play fair". Those same guys wouldn't even discuss a blend as being fair. I'd prefer straight DOH, but have said I'm fine with a blend, because generally I don't fight so dirty, and do want something that's more fair to everyone.
Anyway, we're all just chatting, because what will be will be and our opinions won't change it.
And as I said, the moment you guys got B6 pay rates, you'd be arguing about how your overall CBA was better going into SLI for YOUR advantage. And there may even be some truth to that argument, maybe. So how about we agree that IF you get an immediate B6 rate snap-up only if B6 gets an immediate NK work rule snap-up. All or nothing, we all win or no one wins?
To a certain degree, we are all gonna look after our own until we are one. That's called reality. Some take it further than others. You have NK guys here that want full relative, and think that's fair no matter how it may disadvantage most of B6. You didn't tell them to "play fair". Those same guys wouldn't even discuss a blend as being fair. I'd prefer straight DOH, but have said I'm fine with a blend, because generally I don't fight so dirty, and do want something that's more fair to everyone.
Anyway, we're all just chatting, because what will be will be and our opinions won't change it.
And yes, every legacy CBA has the 190 as a small narrow body, compared to the A320, but I never said anything about stapling, just that it could/should be considered. And I think you agreed with that, otherwise you would not have made the argument that they would be gone before the year was over....
Straight RS means nothing changes for anyone until people start to retire, and because supposedly NK is a younger group, that could affect JB worse than NK. (but because I can't get our union to give a SL with DOB I can't compare)
Straight DOH will absolutely immediately positively affect everyone except the top 150 JB pilots, and negatively affect all but the top 100 NK pilots (but they won't gain anything either)..
Any blend will be better for some, worse for others. But anything other than straight RS will not be an improvement for the NK group, and it will be for JB, at least initially. The only improvement NK can get is from a JCBA that is better than our CBA. And just your commute policy already negates the higher pay rates you have.
Having said all that. Do you really want your union to go on record asking your management to not a give a pay raise to your newly acquired fellow union members? Because even SWAPA didn't ask SWA to do that....
09-15-2023, 06:10 PM
#122
Line holder
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,343
Maybe, but you never know with pilots. I've hardly ever seen a more selfish group in general.
Ultimately I want THE BEST for all of us in the end. But we all know we have to protect our respective groups interest until we are finally one large group.
There are definitely some things I want to keep from your CBA, maybe a lot of things. I guess I just see that where you lack on pay and want immediate parity, we lack some in work rules and should also get immediate parity. After all, why should you get all the pay and all the work rules, before we do? Not seeing how that's reasonable.
Ultimately I want THE BEST for all of us in the end. But we all know we have to protect our respective groups interest until we are finally one large group.
There are definitely some things I want to keep from your CBA, maybe a lot of things. I guess I just see that where you lack on pay and want immediate parity, we lack some in work rules and should also get immediate parity. After all, why should you get all the pay and all the work rules, before we do? Not seeing how that's reasonable.
09-15-2023, 06:39 PM
#123
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 770
09-16-2023, 05:13 AM
#125
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,920
And I would absolutely be happy if JB gets everything in our CBA in exchange for the few extra bucks I would get with your rates. And I don't care if the JSL would be affected either way, I would take our CBA over yours any day.
And yes, every legacy CBA has the 190 as a small narrow body, compared to the A320, but I never said anything about stapling, just that it could/should be considered. And I think you agreed with that, otherwise you would not have made the argument that they would be gone before the year was over....
Straight RS means nothing changes for anyone until people start to retire, and because supposedly NK is a younger group, that could affect JB worse than NK. (but because I can't get our union to give a SL with DOB I can't compare)
Straight DOH will absolutely immediately positively affect everyone except the top 150 JB pilots, and negatively affect all but the top 100 NK pilots (but they won't gain anything either)..
Any blend will be better for some, worse for others. But anything other than straight RS will not be an improvement for the NK group, and it will be for JB, at least initially. The only improvement NK can get is from a JCBA that is better than our CBA. And just your commute policy already negates the higher pay rates you have.
Having said all that. Do you really want your union to go on record asking your management to not a give a pay raise to your newly acquired fellow union members? Because even SWAPA didn't ask SWA to do that....
And yes, every legacy CBA has the 190 as a small narrow body, compared to the A320, but I never said anything about stapling, just that it could/should be considered. And I think you agreed with that, otherwise you would not have made the argument that they would be gone before the year was over....
Straight RS means nothing changes for anyone until people start to retire, and because supposedly NK is a younger group, that could affect JB worse than NK. (but because I can't get our union to give a SL with DOB I can't compare)
Straight DOH will absolutely immediately positively affect everyone except the top 150 JB pilots, and negatively affect all but the top 100 NK pilots (but they won't gain anything either)..
Any blend will be better for some, worse for others. But anything other than straight RS will not be an improvement for the NK group, and it will be for JB, at least initially. The only improvement NK can get is from a JCBA that is better than our CBA. And just your commute policy already negates the higher pay rates you have.
Having said all that. Do you really want your union to go on record asking your management to not a give a pay raise to your newly acquired fellow union members? Because even SWAPA didn't ask SWA to do that....
But, do you really want your union going on record in the SLI asking the arbitrator to place a bunch of JB pilots below yours on the SLI for an airplane that is being retired now, and is announced to be retired before the groups ever fly together? To harm us on a forever seniority list over a plane that will be gone before we ever fly together?
The high and mighty routine doesn't work when you're also in the trenches throwing big grenades.
On a side note, what is it about our commute policy you don't like? I've never had an issue with it, been pretty good to me.
09-16-2023, 05:28 AM
#126
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 770
That you admit NK pilots need only to equal your pay scale, not slightly exceed, not grossly outpace it, just match it in order to have a superior contract tells me everything I need to know about what’s important going into the JCBA.
09-16-2023, 05:35 AM
#127
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,920
And your guys have made it clear that YOU all view it that way already. Whether I fully believe it or not is debatable.
But just for curiosity, what does that tell you about what's important in a JCBA?
09-16-2023, 06:15 AM
#128
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2023
Posts: 175
It is incredible to see how some have contorted their thinking that the NK CBA is superior.
09-16-2023, 06:28 AM
#129
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,920
I EXPECT a thorough, honest and fair comparison guide from our joint MEC team showing us who's better in each provision. Then we should expect to take nearly all of the best of each, and improve from there.
09-16-2023, 08:16 AM
#130
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2022
Posts: 240
(I am more referring to the people who strongly boast that NKs contract is leagues greater that every other major/legacies put together, but when pressed on why can only explain that the rest of the industry doesn't get it, and mumble something vaguely about drop to zero)
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