symbian simian

no, and I would like to keep it that way. We get paid per duty period. You know, paid when you work…. But that is not the main reason. Where I am based most are commuters. And having trip that have both late starts and early finish is helpful with that. I can, for the life of me, not understand people that get into a job that is 24/7 and complain about working weekends. If you want to work calendar week day, go to the post office. So, stop thinking about calendar days. Think about the hours you spend at home.
we have a lot of trips that start at 11pm, one leg, 22 hour rest, one leg back, home at 8am. Most people hate them because 3 day pays 10 hours. I would do those all the time if I lived in base, because I would be home 5 days a week.
We get the industry standard 3.5 duty rig, 5 hours per duty period, and an extra duty paid for every layover over 24 hours.
most of my 4 day trips are 68 TAFB, 14 hour duty, 12 block, 20 credit, 3 duty, 4 legs. Let me know when your ADG would improve on those.

symbian simian

Uh, “several”. As in not lots, but a few. Like you said, maybe 10 or so? And I am not based in FLL. And more than half of the pilots in my base commute, are you really suggesting we all leave, don’t you think our attrition is bad enough already? And I’m sure there’s plenty of things you have never heard anyone say, but that shouldn’t really have stopped you from understanding that one now, should it?

Lincoln Osiris

Ah yes one of those that went to an east coast airline and lives out west. That was a smart move wasn't it? Yes we know commuting sucks, but crying to us about it online ain't gonna change much. Especially with your "min credit 4 day" rhotic.

CincoDeMayo

Im calling about your car's extended warranty.

symbian simian

“rhotic”? And I live east of my base…. I just don’t want our work rules to be ruined because people don’t foresee consequences. Changing the contract will change the pairings. And not necessarily in a good way. And not just for commuters.
Chances are (6 to 1) that I’ve been here longer than you. I elected to commute from the start. That does negate in any way my right to defend the things in our contract that help commuters.

Lincoln Osiris

And what things in our contract currently "help commuters"? The only thing we have in our contract containing paring construction is the red eye +1. There is currently nothing in our contract that requires the company to make pairings "commutable" or going to all 1 day trips. So what specific "work rules" are you talking about that we have that no one else does or isn't industry standard?

Noisecanceller

We have average duty period guarantee just like you guys at JetBlue used to have. Difference is we get an additional duty period of pay for over nights longer than 24hrs scheduled.

Everyone except spirit and frontier has average daily (calendar day) guarantee aka ADG.

Very few of us (simian) want to keep the current duty period language. Calendar day is industry standard. I would like to see the overnight credit trigger stay intact though. I’d also like to see the calendar day as a hard credit and not an average across the trip with 2hrs on day one and 8hrs on day 2 for a 10hr 2 day trip. That trip would pay 13hrs if it was a hard credit. That however is not industry standard but if there is any time to get it it’s in the JCBA that the company has to make happen. It would also prevent the in domicile layover shenanigans JetBlue is pulling with their pairings to eliminate any soft credit by playing the averages.

symbian simian

Not having ADG, and having trip averaging helps commuters. That is my opinion. What we have makes having short first and last days economically okay for the company. If they have to pay you at least 5 hours per day, they will fly you at least 5 hours per day. no more late starts, long layovers (but just under 24 obviously) and no more early finishes. And there is plenty of people that say we should get ADG, and should get rid of trip averaging. And if we did that, I think our trips would end up like SWAs. And in my 10 years here, everyone I have talked to has said they don't want to work for SWA. Everyone keeps harping on "3" day 10 hr trips in Vegas. Almost all check in an hour before midnight, and occasionally we have one that starts later. Obviously, those trips would be gone with ADG. But what would appear in their place. I am convinced the red-eyes out of Vegas would depart at 1 am (like at F9s), and land later on the east coast, making them worse, and still pay 10 hours because due to leaving an hour later, they are now magically 2 day trips...... It is fine to hate what you have, and good to fight to change it, but stupid not to consider what would happen if you change it. I am not smarter, but after 33 years in aviation I have seen plenty of unintended consequences.

I think the company would give us ADG and get rid of trip averaging in a heartbeat for red/green/dtz/4day. Those are way above industry leading NVM standard. We need to defend those, and help JB guys see how much they do for us, so they will fight for those too.

You can adjust trips for ADG and averaging, and long stay aso. R/G DTZ 4day will be a cost to them and a gain for us, always, as long as we don't give it up.

symbian simian

It isn't because I want to get paid less. It is because I think we would just work more for the same.... I am biased being Vegas based, but our trips start anywhere from 4am till 1am, and end between 8am and 1am. It makes the whole concept of calendar day "wrong". I only look at TAFB in hours and days off at home when the sun is up, not calendar days off. most of our worst 3 day trips could easily be turned into worse 2 day trips for the same pay by starting 45 minutes later. Maybe we need 5 ADG and 6.5 per duty period. I am not saying I have the solution, I just think that going for ADG will not improve QOL or pay, at least for LAS.

And that trip would have 5 hours on day 1 if we had hard credit..... Trips are built with the rules in mind. see above

Lincoln Osiris

I hate to break it to you but calendar day is industry standard and it is coming. You are gonna run out of soap boxes.