Survey accuracy
07-17-2023, 05:13 PM
#132
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,203
No, that doesn't answer my question. We asked, and pushed very hard (not max hard, but a strong effort was made). On several occasions. They absolutely refused, said it was a "non-starter".
Why is it a "non-starter" for management if they can just "accounting trick" their way out of paying us?
Why is it a "non-starter" for management if they can just "accounting trick" their way out of paying us?
But that’s a pretty defeatist attitude. Last time they did not have a pilot shortage or be hemorrhaging FOs to the legacies OR NEED A JCBA TO GET RETURN ON A SEVERAL BILLION DOLLAR PURCHASE. So now is NOT the time to start negotiations with a “they’ll never concede on that issue” attitude or it will soon become a self fulfilling prophecy. We’ve not had leverage like this ever. Now is the time to think big.
And I ask you again-
What has it cost THEM in negotiating capital to stick you with the current (pretty much non-functional) profit sharing you now have? That’s an honest question - not a dig.
07-17-2023, 06:52 PM
#133
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,920
That would be a question you would have to ask management, not me. But you could ask the same thing about EVERY SINGLE CBA IMPROVEMENT you want in the JCBA. WHY WOULD. THEY GIVE IT TO YOU NOW IF THEY DIDN’t give it to you last time?
But that’s a pretty defeatist attitude. Last time they did not have a pilot shortage or be hemorrhaging FOs to the legacies OR NEED A JCBA TO GET RETURN ON A SEVERAL BILLION DOLLAR PURCHASE. So now is NOT the time to start negotiations with a “they’ll never concede on that issue” attitude or it will soon become a self fulfilling prophecy. We’ve not had leverage like this ever. Now is the time to think big.
And I ask you again-
But that’s a pretty defeatist attitude. Last time they did not have a pilot shortage or be hemorrhaging FOs to the legacies OR NEED A JCBA TO GET RETURN ON A SEVERAL BILLION DOLLAR PURCHASE. So now is NOT the time to start negotiations with a “they’ll never concede on that issue” attitude or it will soon become a self fulfilling prophecy. We’ve not had leverage like this ever. Now is the time to think big.
And I ask you again-
You say management can just "accounting trick" their way out of paying. So then why have they refused to give us back the plan? Why refuse to give us something that is in your mind virtually worthless? I don't get that, and you aren't really answering it. If they don't have to pay, and it doesn't cost them anything, why not just give it to us?
07-17-2023, 07:28 PM
#134
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,203
I don't really understand your question, but you still didn't answer mine.
You say management can just "accounting trick" their way out of paying. So then why have they refused to give us back the plan? Why refuse to give us something that is in your mind virtually worthless? I don't get that, and you aren't really answering it. If they don't have to pay, and it doesn't cost them anything, why not just give it to us?
You say management can just "accounting trick" their way out of paying. So then why have they refused to give us back the plan? Why refuse to give us something that is in your mind virtually worthless? I don't get that, and you aren't really answering it. If they don't have to pay, and it doesn't cost them anything, why not just give it to us?
But why are YOU so averse to even bringing up the idea of revenue sharing? This is scarcely a new concept.
example:
Professional Sports
Several major professional sports leagues use revenue sharing with ticket proceeds and merchandising. For example, the separate organizations that run each team in the NFL jointly pool together large portions of their revenues and distribute them among all members.As of 2020, the NFL and the players' union agreed to a revenue share split that would pay the team owners 53% of the revenue generated while players would receive 47%.1 In 2019, the NFL generated about $16 billion in revenue, meaning that slightly more than $8.5 billion was disbursed to the teams while the remaining got paid out to the players.2
Various kickers and stipulations can be added to revenue-sharing agreements. For instance, if the NFL season is extended from 16 to 17 games in the coming years, the players would receive additional revenue or a kicker if advertising revenue from TV contracts increased by 60%.1 In other words, revenue sharing agreements can include percentage increases or decreases in the future depending on performance or specific pre-set metrics.
Revenue Sharing vs. Profit Sharing
Don’t confuse revenue sharing with profit sharing, or you might be in for a nasty surprise at the end of the year. Profit sharing is a split of the profits, not revenues. This means you only get paid if there’s a profit, but you aren’t responsible for helping pay off any losses.Make sure you understand all of the profit-sharing advantages and disadvantages before you consider going this route. For example, be careful to read the fine print of a profit-sharing agreement; some businesses try to charge as many expenses as possible to the business (including the owner’s salary) so there will be no profit left over.
If you want to set up a profit-sharing program for your management team or employees, make sure everyone knows what will be considered an expense to avoid any hard feelings.
You can set up a profit-sharing plan for employees that contributes the money to their retirement accounts. Whichever route you choose, ensure you follow IRS guidelines for these types of payments, advises Group Management Services.
Revenue sharing is scarcely alien to the airline business. It’s pretty much the basis for the legacy regional feed model, where the legacy sells the tickets and pays a share of the revenue to the regional.
07-18-2023, 03:55 AM
#135
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,920
Why SHOULD they bother when they aren’t paying you any meaningful PS now?
But why are YOU so averse to even bringing up the idea of revenue sharing? This is scarcely a new concept.
example:
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/ans...k-practice.asp
https://smallbusiness.chron.com/adva...ing-21864.html
Revenue sharing is scarcely alien to the airline business. It’s pretty much the basis for the legacy regional feed model, where the legacy sells the tickets and pays a share of the revenue to the regional.
But why are YOU so averse to even bringing up the idea of revenue sharing? This is scarcely a new concept.
example:
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/ans...k-practice.asp
https://smallbusiness.chron.com/adva...ing-21864.html
Revenue sharing is scarcely alien to the airline business. It’s pretty much the basis for the legacy regional feed model, where the legacy sells the tickets and pays a share of the revenue to the regional.
Why did AA and UAL pilots make profit sharing improvements a pillar of their recent/current negotiations? I mean, if it's worthless (can just be accounting tricked away) then why bother?
Why did Delta literally make it a written pillar of their negotiations? Don't they know it's just gonna be accounting tricked away?
As for revenue sharing, I've said my piece on that. But bringing up regional code sharing business structure as an example of how revenue sharing has been given to pilots, give me a break.
07-18-2023, 05:13 AM
#136
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2022
Position: Switch it up
Posts: 81
Bluedriver, you really should take a breath and think deeper about what we're trying to say. Profit sharing based on net income is really weak. It's not an "accounting gimmick". It's GAAP accounting 101. And, it's how hundreds of growth companies structure their finances.
Don't end up scratching your head in confusion 10 years later when the company prints cash, triples in size, the stock goes parabolic, and not once reports a positive net income.
Don't end up scratching your head in confusion 10 years later when the company prints cash, triples in size, the stock goes parabolic, and not once reports a positive net income.
07-18-2023, 07:59 AM
#139
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,203
But we all sit in hotels sometimes and it would be advantageous for us ALL to give serious considerations for what we want and what the possibilities are for the JCBA. We may be living under that JCBA for half a decade. The MEC and the NC can’t do all the thinking for us.
07-18-2023, 08:37 AM
#140
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 160
Not bickering at all and I actually like Bluedriver. I’d just like him to expand his retinue of things he might CONSIDER like I think he has done with DTZ which at one time he was adamantly opposed to but as he became better acquainted with it through the give and take on here he came to better appreciate.
But we all sit in hotels sometimes and it would be advantageous for us ALL to give serious considerations for what we want and what the possibilities are for the JCBA. We may be living under that JCBA for half a decade. The MEC and the NC can’t do all the thinking for us.
But we all sit in hotels sometimes and it would be advantageous for us ALL to give serious considerations for what we want and what the possibilities are for the JCBA. We may be living under that JCBA for half a decade. The MEC and the NC can’t do all the thinking for us.
Sounds like you and I may walked the sidewalk together with the corny signs, and I just hope the combined group has the stones to demand nothing less than DAL/UAL parity or shut the whole M'Fer down again.
I also agree it's all in the details, so it's going to back a lot of back and forth, so my lazy @ss is grateful for guys like you two who are bright enough to have these discussions.
My concern is the very new guys will be dazzled by the old shiney jet syndrome and an "adequate" agreement. After all, even a crap agreement beats a recent CFI gig, and I'm afraid they'll fall for it.
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