Spirit vs big 3
01-11-2023, 01:34 PM
#131
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,920
I can almost guarantee DTZ will not survive the JCBA process. I wrote this in another thread on the Spirit board. It will be sacrificed on the altar for improvements in JB's current system. DTZ is a great QOL tool that I realize most NK pilots love. The problem is it's a non standard benefit in the industry. When we were negotiating our first CBA, we lost a lot of benefits, like PTO sellback which was an amazing benefit for the pilot group. The reason we were given by our NC as to why it didn't survive: It was non standard operation in the industry and it would be almost impossible to argue with a mediator/arbiter and win that benefit. I guess I'm saying that I don't have to not have lived DTZ to understand how important it is to NK pilots or how much it benefitted that group. I'm just saying that the chances of it surviving in our JCBA is near zero. The quicker that realization occurs, the more we can focus as a combined group on the areas we CAN make improvements in, in both QOL and compensation.
It's not ALL or nothing. It's not DTZ or DT70, it's negotiable and there may be a middle ground where management may agree
Second, DTZ did survive Spirit's previous NMB negotiations.
01-11-2023, 01:43 PM
#132
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Posts: 993
I guess that's my point. We have drop to 70 now. They have drop to 0. Is there a compromise that allows us to drop to a number between those and still get the gains we need in other areas? That will be the key. The company will be playing "What are you going to give up for that". Our response should be "Nothing". Delta's AIP gave zero concessions. Our JCBA we'll have the most leverage we'll ever have. Let's not waste it.
01-11-2023, 01:48 PM
#133
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 657
Yes but dropping reserve days didn’t survive. Honestly we are screwed esp with our current mec.
01-11-2023, 01:53 PM
#134
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,203
And survived in a negotiating environment far inferior to this one.
Any MEC or NC member going into these negotiations with the attitude that anything will have to be conceded needs to be replaced before negotiations even start.
Issues might be traded for something of greater value to the pilot group, but anyone in this environment, who thinks that concessions are inevitable has no business being a negotiator, and for that matter probably have someone else represent them if they want to buy a used car from someone.
Our going in attitude dealing with management ought to be:
What’s ours is ours, what’s yours is negotiable.
,
01-11-2023, 01:57 PM
#135
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,920
It may have survived the last NMB because the company gained significant gains elsewhere (didn't they give up line scheduling) that the drop to 0 was worth keeping for the company.
I guess that's my point. We have drop to 70 now. They have drop to 0. Is there a compromise that allows us to drop to a number between those and still get the gains we need in other areas? That will be the key. The company will be playing "What are you going to give up for that". Our response should be "Nothing". Delta's AIP gave zero concessions. Our JCBA we'll have the most leverage we'll ever have. Let's not waste it.
I guess that's my point. We have drop to 70 now. They have drop to 0. Is there a compromise that allows us to drop to a number between those and still get the gains we need in other areas? That will be the key. The company will be playing "What are you going to give up for that". Our response should be "Nothing". Delta's AIP gave zero concessions. Our JCBA we'll have the most leverage we'll ever have. Let's not waste it.
01-11-2023, 01:57 PM
#136
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,203
01-11-2023, 01:57 PM
#137
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Posts: 993
The difference in the JCBA is that we'll be meshing 2 different communities into one. You guys have had your world with work rules and QOL initiatives and compensation levels and we've had ours. I think there's no doubt there are things NK has that would be highly beneficial for our combined group. The key will be itemizing them and having an honest discussion on prioritization. Is dropping to 0 more important than a real PS formula and significant 401k contributions from the company? What about increases in vacation weeks? PTO allocation. Health care costs. LTD/STD. Control of pairing production. Commutability. etc etc. DTZ is something I read a lot on the Spirit board and I know it evokes a lot of emotion for many. There are a ton of QOL and compensation initiatives that should be discussed as well. We have a chance to make this a damn good JCBA if we're focused and have a JMEC/NC that can accomplish the mission.
01-11-2023, 02:00 PM
#138
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 657
Honestly I voted no for it, but it seems like most didn’t and didn’t care until recently when all I hear is “I can’t drop/swap reserve days.” Well most your fellow pilots traded that away because they didn’t care, so what’s happened is now I don’t care, too bad so sad you voted it away, live with it.
01-11-2023, 02:21 PM
#139
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,954
Why can’t everyone just comprehend that Drop to Zero will be gone as we know it in the JCBA, it will be leveraged for gains in other areas that benefit the entirety of the group vs maybe the 1% who actually drop to zero
More so, it’s not feast or famine; you can use drop to zero leverage as a benefit while securing a drop system that works for the entire group, not those who want to never work or the ones who never drop below guarantee, but the majority of us.
It’s not that difficult. Drop to zero is Spirits previous “4days
off“ which is useless to most NK pilots.
In the end you’ll be hard pressed to find many pilots on either seniority list ready to die on the hill or “drop to zero” when essentially none of us use it. It’s like maintaining your CFI when you know you’ll never instruct again, a waste.
Drop to 50? Now that is something more pilots can and will use.
More so, it’s not feast or famine; you can use drop to zero leverage as a benefit while securing a drop system that works for the entire group, not those who want to never work or the ones who never drop below guarantee, but the majority of us.
It’s not that difficult. Drop to zero is Spirits previous “4days
off“ which is useless to most NK pilots.
In the end you’ll be hard pressed to find many pilots on either seniority list ready to die on the hill or “drop to zero” when essentially none of us use it. It’s like maintaining your CFI when you know you’ll never instruct again, a waste.
Drop to 50? Now that is something more pilots can and will use.
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