Spirit vs big 3
01-11-2023, 01:08 AM
#111
New Hire
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Posts: 3
The Delta AIP that will likely pass late winter or early spring will have a top pay rate for 319/320 CA at DOS+3yr of $382..57 and 321NEO rate of $396.89. Not sure how this was overlooked in 11 pages. But to say the pay is the same is not even close. A widebody FO on the 767-400/A330/A350 will make over 200kyr 2 working min schedule (65hr/mo). I doubt AA and UA will be far behind when they get their ducks in a row.
01-11-2023, 01:35 AM
#113
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,356
That was exactly his point why waste the capital on drop to zero when you can get the same benefit without actually need to go to zero. You can drop 2 or 3 trips down to some number of hours. Take the time off for something important or not or drop in favor of a preferable trip.
The point was he wasn’t pay over qol and in favor of dropping all of spirits qol. His pov was pretty moderate and said he wasn’t willing to give up things that 100% of the group could benefit from in favor of something 5% would use. You can drop to 50hr which would be used by a much higher percentage of the entire group and still offers some qol benefit without giving as much capital to obtain.
The point was he wasn’t pay over qol and in favor of dropping all of spirits qol. His pov was pretty moderate and said he wasn’t willing to give up things that 100% of the group could benefit from in favor of something 5% would use. You can drop to 50hr which would be used by a much higher percentage of the entire group and still offers some qol benefit without giving as much capital to obtain.
01-11-2023, 01:36 AM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,356
Not to pop in on your parade too much but ya at F9 I have gotten every single holiday off this year with ease. Just over a year on property. Can’t drop to 0 but I can drop any trip I want almost anytime. I think with most airlines with the current hiring blitzes those types of perks come pretty easily now.
01-11-2023, 04:25 AM
#115
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,920
JB's grid DOES need to be fixed. I will go to the hill and fight the battle, and die if I have to to get NK's grid rules.
The other poster was 100% correct about my balanced view on QOL vs pay and how best to achieve that. You can go back and read the long discussion vs me rehashing it here, but the previous posters short synopsis of my view was basically 100% correct.
You are obviously closer to an FNG to take your "knowledge and experience" of this industry and contracts seriously.
Ultimately I want a top-of-the-industry contract with broad pay, work rule, benefit and QOL improvements that broadly benefit the majority of the group. That is what I will fight for, and will fight mischaracterization of my position.
And the position you inaccurately charge me with has a polar opposite. You appear to be willing to give up nearly any other work rule, benefit, improvements in retirement contributions, healthcare, rigs and top of industry pay rates, and PAID time off, simply to keep EVERY hour of DTZ. DT40, DT20, DT10 or even DT1 would be unacceptable to you, and you'd give up EVERYTHING else that pilots value in a CBA to avoid DT1...
Last edited by Bluedriver; 01-11-2023 at 04:51 AM.
01-11-2023, 05:22 AM
#117
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,920
Two sides to every coin. The way the discussion went on the other board and by some of the comments here, it's clear some will give up nearly everything and anything, including needed improvements in other areas in order to keep EVERY SINGLE HOUR of DTZ.
01-11-2023, 05:34 AM
#118
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,954
Those who drop to 0, or below 50, want to keep it under any costs
Those who never drop would be fine “selling” it for other areas.
Sure seems like either bill isn’t one to die on and maintaining a drop system where pilots can drop when needed, without hassle, is important. But this “I don’t want to work at all, we need drop to 0” sure reminds me of the mantra of some with conflict drops and reserve checker boarding.
01-11-2023, 05:56 AM
#119
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,920
Because….shocker…..pilots want what’s best for their own interests.
Those who drop to 0, or below 50, want to keep it under any costs
Those who never drop would be fine “selling” it for other areas.
Sure seems like either bill isn’t one to die on and maintaining a drop system where pilots can drop when needed, without hassle, is important. But this “I don’t want to work at all, we need drop to 0” sure reminds me of the mantra of some with conflict drops and reserve checker boarding.
Those who drop to 0, or below 50, want to keep it under any costs
Those who never drop would be fine “selling” it for other areas.
Sure seems like either bill isn’t one to die on and maintaining a drop system where pilots can drop when needed, without hassle, is important. But this “I don’t want to work at all, we need drop to 0” sure reminds me of the mantra of some with conflict drops and reserve checker boarding.
Most of the die hard DTZ at ***ALL*** costs are either protecting their own personal scam or are conflating the legitimate QOL benefits they have been feeling from the red/green grid rules with that of DTZ. Most of the "I swapped my whole line" and "I got Christmas off" comments can be done with the "swap" function of FLICA assuming the GRID IS GREEN. Never did they need to go to ZERO to do these heroic things...
My position on the other board was CLEAR. I'm fine with the starting position being "best of everything in the industry", including DTZ. But if and when trimming needs to happen in the package, there are countless things that need to be improved, most which the entire group would benefit from, and if to get those other things (profit sharing, rigs, top of industry pay, retirement improvements, healthcare improvements, PAID time off improvements, etc...) which benefit the entire list there needs to be some COMPROMISE on DTZ, then so be it.
And I'm not talking about compromise on red/green grid rules. That's a separate discussion and one I FULLY support keeping 100% in tact.
As Excargo said, a very small percentage ever use the FULL drop to ZERO. As in, line cleared to ZERO, so to have a modest compromise of DT40, or DT50, or even DT25, something, to get everything else we want which would benefit nearly everyone, at the expense of a very small percentage of people who ever go to full ZERO. That's reasonable. That's moderate. That's looking at the big picture and greater good. That's looking for a more equitable distribution of ***OUR COLLECTIVE*** negotiating capital.
Last edited by Bluedriver; 01-11-2023 at 06:09 AM.
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