onedolla

Agree with you there.

Justabusdriver1

The premises is that if we go into tpa with our current rates we have a much taller ladder to climb to reach economic synchrony with current jet blue pilots and we’d be negotiating with jet blue at that point. We would have to give up more in those talks to reach that level of pay parity. The less jet blue has to give to get us on the same pay scale the less we have to give up in terms of qol.

onedolla

Yeah this is where I start scratching my head. Why are they talking about giving up anything. Obviously JB won’t negotiate a pay cut, we say we won’t negotiate loss of current QOL, health insurance, and maybe LTD. They can’t pay both groups differently in a JCBA, and JetBlue already secured a version of snap up vs the other airlines.

If we don’t achieve economic synchronicity with the TPA, that’s no surprise to most of us anyways, we keep being told the JCBA is where we make our final stand.

Why would anything be given up for us to be paid same as JB when we’re all in the same pilot group at that point? Wouldn’t JetBlue own Spirit at that juncture so the moneys technically coming from the same place when you dig deep enough?

flyingmonkeys

It won’t be up to the negotiators. There’s about a 100 percent chance the JCBA will go to arbitration. They will look at the pay bump and say “spirit pilots are getting a lot in pay” that could very well cause them to side on the quality of life stuff and SLI in favor of JetBlue.

onedolla

I see. So in that case, isn’t it absolutely paramount that we get snap-up to JetBlue parity as soon as possible? On THIS TA that we alone vote for (Spirit Pilots). Like a lot of the yes voters are saying, it’s just a year or two or three or four vs an entire career that could be affected by supposedly losing in the arbitration for JCBA and SLI all because we are paid less (any amount less) than JB.

SpeedBrakes

I'm gonna copy and paste this straight out of the TA FAQ on the SPA website:

Why didn’t we get a snap-up clause?

We first bargained for a snap-up clause that would not be tied to the merger where our rates would automatically snap up to JetBlue even if we were to remain a standalone company. With the Company’s current financial performance, the proposal was a complete non-starter for Spirit. The Company was unwilling to expose themselves to an unknown financial risk, a blank check if you will. Our second snap-up proposal was conditioned on the merger and was used to leverage additional compensation knowing that JetBlue management’s agreement would have been required for the proposal to be accepted. Had we
continued to pursue their agreement, it would have given JetBlue management more leverage to ask for something in exchange than will be the case when pursuing this provision in TPA negotiations.

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Ok "it would have given JetBlue management more leverage to ask for something in exchange than will be the case when pursuing this provision in TPA negotiations." - How is the leverage any different now than it is then? So it sounds like we could have asked B6 for a snap up now, but B6 management will have more leverage over us now than in TPA negotiations? I expect B6 management to want to extract a price for the snap up - it will not be free. Frankly, I'd rather know that price now, we the PILOTS are voting on it and we, as a pilot group, can decide. I don't buy this case that it would have given B6 management more leverage if we ask for it now. No rationale behind that is given. So we just need to trust that the MEC, because only they vote on the TPA, will be the gatekeepers of what is negotiated for a snap up in the TPA? A common theme in the roadshow from our NC is "we wanna get this done fast... move fast... etc etc". Well, sure I want to get it done fast, but it also needs to be decent. It's like with this TA even common decency was sacrificed in the name of speed, and getting it done fast. So then the MEC, which they are making a snap up a bit deal of bite 2 in the TPA, are they willing to hold the line there and drag it out there if we need a protracted fight to achieve our work rules and a snap up? Or will we be told that it has to be "done fast" to move on to a JCBA, where if we cna't convince the B6 pilot group to value our work rules like we do they'll just outvote us and we'll lose them.

CincoDeMayo

The JCBA won’t go to arbitration because neither NK or JBLU have a binding arbitration clause in our current CBAs, unlike Alaska which has binding arbitration forced on them because that had an arbitration clause.

Arbitration would be a huge disadvantage to the pilots, and we don’t have it in our contract. So as far as it being 100%, nope.

This has been covered on every road show.

Halon1211

Okay Halon’s goofy hat is off for a second…

I recently went to the road show and I have to say I went from a yes to a definite YES.

They explained things pretty clearly and definitely know what they are talking about. I really had no idea before how bad Spirits position was, like how Legacies make lots more revenue on other stuff…it makes sense just never thought of it that way. How legacy pilot labor expense ratio is a lot less (I always assumed it was more). How Spirit had to borrow lots of money because of up coming expenses (like this pilot contract coming up) also to make sure we had enough cash to cover credit card transactions because Spirits cash got to a critically low point.

you can talk all you want that they are trying to scare us. But that is the truth, we really arnt in the position that Delta is in. They acknowledged that yes we fly the same planes and have the same responsibilities as our peers but the ULCC model just definitely isn’t favorable to what we want.

here is some good news through…they do have a plan to bring us to narrow body Legacy rates relatively quickly. They 3 step plan they talked about…and let’s be honest the JetBlue merger really needs to happen…

the SLI stuff is really why we need a contract now and not after JetBlue votes. It’s really the timing of it. But anyways I’m getting tired of writing…lots to explain. But if you want I encourage all of you to watch that discussion about halfway through the virtual video they have on the ALPA website.

Did I expect $20/hour more from this TA? Yes absolutely but this is still a pretty significant pay raise in the next step to the JetBlue merger.

also I hear a lot of stuff about how guys want the union to go after the company on work rules…dude you don’t want to go down that road. You know they are going to try to take work rules away and not give us favorable work rules and that will drag this thing out even further.

anyways that my 2¢ why that road show solidified my YES vote.

(okay goofy hat back on)

Tranquility

What are you talking about arbitration?!

onedolla is 100% spot on in his analysis, neither side needs to give up anything (unless we’re cowards or completely stupid) in JCBA negotiations. Both of our unions hold the cards on this merger actually happening, management knows this too. They will play hardball. Neither side (NK pilots and B6 pilots) needs to concede ANYTHING!

SSlow

Is that the part where we actually "get em next time"?