TA Reached
12-12-2022, 05:10 PM
#432
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2022
Posts: 156
Beautiful. We all know hiring and acquiring pilots isn’t our job. So if they (management) didn’t get enough to attract pilots, that’s their problem. I’m sure our MEC will be willing to entertain an increase in training pay, benefits and first year pay in 2023 when they realize they misjudged. Of course, that will come at a cost.
It’s what we ALL (minus Excargo) have been saying, first year/training pay/benefits is the leverage. The fact management came up short is our best leverage going forward.
Devils advocate; vote this down and maybe management realizes they didn’t improve the bottom enough and wants to improve it for any TA2.
It’s what we ALL (minus Excargo) have been saying, first year/training pay/benefits is the leverage. The fact management came up short is our best leverage going forward.
Devils advocate; vote this down and maybe management realizes they didn’t improve the bottom enough and wants to improve it for any TA2.
12-12-2022, 05:49 PM
#433
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2022
Posts: 156
So many special cases here.
$95/hr first year, people on here saying “that won’t help attrition, they are screwed”
So the company has the ability to raise first year to $137/hr, and people are flipping out, calling it a “concession”
But… if the company negotiated $137 flat for first year pay during these talks, people would be saying “ok, that might help attrition,” and suddenly it’s not a concession but a gain for first year pilots.
Most of you just get lost in your own logic.
$95/hr first year, people on here saying “that won’t help attrition, they are screwed”
So the company has the ability to raise first year to $137/hr, and people are flipping out, calling it a “concession”
But… if the company negotiated $137 flat for first year pay during these talks, people would be saying “ok, that might help attrition,” and suddenly it’s not a concession but a gain for first year pilots.
Most of you just get lost in your own logic.
12-12-2022, 05:55 PM
#434
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Position: A320
Posts: 734
When has there ever been 100% guarantee in anything? But one can observe the environment around them and make an educated guess. Based on where each carrier is in negotiation, the probability of those pilots getting a CBA by mid 2023 is high.
Also, when do you think you'll get a 2nd bite at the apple? Let's say you believe you'll be back at the table in 1 year for a JCBA. Do you think as soon as negotiations open for a JCBA, there will be a new TA a day after that? A week after that? A month after that? No. It's going to be long and tedious while you sit on the rates you voted in, then you start to fall behind American, United, Delta, Southwest and JetBlue (probably even Frontier too since their amenable date would be coming up).
On average, CBA negotiations take 4 years because mgmt likes to drag it out to wear us down. Look no further than current examples of airlines in negotiations. In our case of merger, they would want it quicker in order to start merging Spirit. Let's say they do it in half the usual time. That's still 2 years + the 1 year that you believe you'd get another bite at the "apple."
So you are, so far, looking at 3 yrs best case scenario with the current AIP rates you are facing. This is not considering the fact that the estimated time JB put out for approval from the DOJ and merge is actual 1.5 years from now, the fact that the merger could drag out in a lawsuit from JB to the DOJ, and JCBA could take longer than the 2 years that I used as an example.
All of this is happening while Spirit guys/gals slowly.......fall.......behind......in......pay... .....again.
So no, you will NOT get a change in pay rate a year from now.
Also, when do you think you'll get a 2nd bite at the apple? Let's say you believe you'll be back at the table in 1 year for a JCBA. Do you think as soon as negotiations open for a JCBA, there will be a new TA a day after that? A week after that? A month after that? No. It's going to be long and tedious while you sit on the rates you voted in, then you start to fall behind American, United, Delta, Southwest and JetBlue (probably even Frontier too since their amenable date would be coming up).
On average, CBA negotiations take 4 years because mgmt likes to drag it out to wear us down. Look no further than current examples of airlines in negotiations. In our case of merger, they would want it quicker in order to start merging Spirit. Let's say they do it in half the usual time. That's still 2 years + the 1 year that you believe you'd get another bite at the "apple."
So you are, so far, looking at 3 yrs best case scenario with the current AIP rates you are facing. This is not considering the fact that the estimated time JB put out for approval from the DOJ and merge is actual 1.5 years from now, the fact that the merger could drag out in a lawsuit from JB to the DOJ, and JCBA could take longer than the 2 years that I used as an example.
All of this is happening while Spirit guys/gals slowly.......fall.......behind......in......pay... .....again.
So no, you will NOT get a change in pay rate a year from now.
12-12-2022, 06:15 PM
#435
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2022
Posts: 156
As long as they want, but at least we would be entitled to seek retro pay since the contract would be immediately amendable in such a circumstance (a mediator would likely side with us on that). Right now if we turn it down, we’re looking at a minimum of a few months of lost wage increases with an approximately 0% chance of any form of retro to make up for it.
12-12-2022, 09:10 PM
#436
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Posts: 57
Well we are losing money, but because of them, not in spite of them. They are losers, plain and simple.
Honestly if I were at the table and they played that “we are too broke to pay DOS, I would ask why we are the only airline not making money and perhaps the problem is at that end of the negotiating table.
Honestly if I were at the table and they played that “we are too broke to pay DOS, I would ask why we are the only airline not making money and perhaps the problem is at that end of the negotiating table.
Remember what we get from the company when they were making money? HIGH FIVE!
i wish the vote open tomorrow and get the NO vote done. Save the union money for the road shows, so they can buy some food for the first year FOs during Christmas.
12-13-2022, 06:06 AM
#437
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 933
You say that with such certainty, and yet you're completely misinformed. The 2nd 'bite at the apple' is the TPA, which would be the opportunity to snap up to B6 rates and level the playing field going into the JCBA. That happens as soon as we get fed approval, so 1st half of '24.
Here is the kicker. If they can defer that cost to a later date (idk maybe AFTER a JCBA agreement), why would they do it earlier? Because people will leave? Because Culture? Ha! People are leaving Spirit now and you guys/gals have a bigger leverage and won't use it. But I guess it will be used in a TPA, with very little leverage, when at that point whoever is left at Spirit is already committed to staying since they will keep seniority and not start over and eventually get a higher pay down the road(just not at TPA).
Yeah that's clever, and I'm completely misformed. I like your certainty though. Rock on.
Edit: Just spoke to a union rep and it was confirmed that TPA will not and does not include any snap up pay. However, if you or anyone wants to plan on that to justify your vote, go ahead.
Last edited by Bgood; 12-13-2022 at 06:36 AM.
12-13-2022, 06:34 AM
#438
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 933
You say that with such certainty, and yet you're completely misinformed. The 2nd 'bite at the apple' is the TPA, which would be the opportunity to snap up to B6 rates and level the playing field going into the JCBA. That happens as soon as we get fed approval, so 1st half of '24.
The TPA is a multi-party agreement between the merging carriers and the MECs that governs those aspects of the pilots’ merger process involving the carriers. Specifically, it addresses the following:
1. The process for negotiating a JCBA.
2. The combined carrier’s obligation to implement a single seniority list arrived at under ALPA policy.
3. Other applicable job protections.
4. Merger-associated expenses.
5. Application for Single Operating Certificate and petition for Single Transportation System determination.
So can you show me where in the TPA would our Spirit brethrens would get a pay snap up?
I'm misinformed so I dont know.
**please dear Jesus, I hope he/she doesn't think it's #4**
12-13-2022, 06:47 AM
#439
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,954
What is a TPA?
The TPA is a multi-party agreement between the merging carriers and the MECs that governs those aspects of the pilots’ merger process involving the carriers. Specifically, it addresses the following:
1. The process for negotiating a JCBA.
2. The combined carrier’s obligation to implement a single seniority list arrived at under ALPA policy.
3. Other applicable job protections.
4. Merger-associated expenses.
5. Application for Single Operating Certificate and petition for Single Transportation System determination.
So can you show me where in the TPA would our Spirit brethrens would get a pay snap up?
I'm misinformed so I dont know.
**please dear Jesus, I hope he/she doesn't think it's #4**
The TPA is a multi-party agreement between the merging carriers and the MECs that governs those aspects of the pilots’ merger process involving the carriers. Specifically, it addresses the following:
1. The process for negotiating a JCBA.
2. The combined carrier’s obligation to implement a single seniority list arrived at under ALPA policy.
3. Other applicable job protections.
4. Merger-associated expenses.
5. Application for Single Operating Certificate and petition for Single Transportation System determination.
So can you show me where in the TPA would our Spirit brethrens would get a pay snap up?
I'm misinformed so I dont know.
**please dear Jesus, I hope he/she doesn't think it's #4**
Read. From the ALPA merger policy. I could copy and paste the portion that speaks of a TPA and economic gains, but may be best to read it all.
12-13-2022, 07:53 AM
#440
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2013
Position: A320
Posts: 734
What is a TPA?
The TPA is a multi-party agreement between the merging carriers and the MECs that governs those aspects of the pilots’ merger process involving the carriers. Specifically, it addresses the following:
1. The process for negotiating a JCBA.
2. The combined carrier’s obligation to implement a single seniority list arrived at under ALPA policy.
3. Other applicable job protections.
4. Merger-associated expenses.
5. Application for Single Operating Certificate and petition for Single Transportation System determination.
So can you show me where in the TPA would our Spirit brethrens would get a pay snap up?
I'm misinformed so I dont know.
**please dear Jesus, I hope he/she doesn't think it's #4**
The TPA is a multi-party agreement between the merging carriers and the MECs that governs those aspects of the pilots’ merger process involving the carriers. Specifically, it addresses the following:
1. The process for negotiating a JCBA.
2. The combined carrier’s obligation to implement a single seniority list arrived at under ALPA policy.
3. Other applicable job protections.
4. Merger-associated expenses.
5. Application for Single Operating Certificate and petition for Single Transportation System determination.
So can you show me where in the TPA would our Spirit brethrens would get a pay snap up?
I'm misinformed so I dont know.
**please dear Jesus, I hope he/she doesn't think it's #4**
From the ALPA merger policy:
3. If a decision is made that a transition agreement would benefit flight deck crew members, the subject matter for transition agreement negotiations should include those issues necessary to expeditiously process the merger, including but not limited to the following:
a. Appropriate employee protective provisions for the transfer of employment and seniority rights from one company to another.
b. Management acceptance of the integrated seniority list arrived at pursuant to this policy.
c. Measures to provide for separation of flight operations, equipment, and existing flying of each involved carrier until such time as there is an integrated seniority list and JCBA or until the involved MECs agree otherwise. Any dispute shall be decided by the Executive Council.
d. Process for expeditious negotiation of a JCBA.
e. Economic improvements.
f. Single carrier process for representation purposes.
g. Payment or reimbursement by management of all expenses (including flight pay loss) incurred in connection with the proposed or actual merger.
h. Expedited dispute resolution process, incorporating a process for resolution of disputes between or among the involved MECs, which once resolved will be the position of ALPA with the carrier.
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