AIP reached
12-09-2022, 06:49 AM
#191
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2019
Position: A320 For Your Health
Posts: 327
Spirit is not losing money because of high labor costs. Spirit is losing money because they arent moving metal. Started out as meltdowns due to losing below the wing contractors in our largest bases resulting in several meltdowns. Why were we losing those employees? Low pay and a failure to keep up with logisitics companies plucking away at our workers. That issue still remains as i understand, and now they have the pilot attrition issue, costing this company roughly 3 hours of flying per aircraft per day. They ust wanna get back to 12 hours of utilization. They're not even considering 14 hours, unless that's what the red eye talk is all about. But let's get this clear. Pilot pay being too high is not why this management team isnt showing their shareholders a profit. Let's all just take paycuts! Yay!
12-09-2022, 06:51 AM
#192
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2022
Posts: 15
Spirit is not losing money because of high labor costs. Spirit is losing money because they arent moving metal. Started out as meltdowns due to losing below the wing contractors in our largest bases resulting in several meltdowns. Why were we losing those employees? Low pay and a failure to keep up with logisitics companies plucking away at our workers. That issue still remains as i understand, and now they have the pilot attrition issue, costing this company roughly 3 hours of flying per aircraft per day. They ust wanna get back to 12 hours of utilization. They're not even considering 14 hours, unless that's what the red eye talk is all about. But let's get this clear. Pilot pay being too high is not why this management team isnt showing their shareholders a profit. Let's all just take paycuts! Yay!
I mean this guy gets it
12-09-2022, 06:52 AM
#193
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,954
But you are correct, as employee costs rise, there goes some of your cost advantage, not a shocker there
Now can management raise fares to cover employee costs while still being competitive and profitable? Still waiting for us to become profitable…
Spirit, last to profitability. Management is clueless on how to run a profitable airline
12-09-2022, 07:01 AM
#194
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,203
We were utilizing our A/C at 16 hours a day and now has dropped to around 10 because of having to reduce schedules. We don’t have the bodies to fly the new aircraft coming in. You pay market rate, our attrition will slow, hiring will be where it should and AC utilization with get back to more profitable levels.
I’m sure we are getting the 33 new aircraft at less than the 101 million apiece list price but even so, that)s $2 billion plus worth of inventory coming in, and just letting it sit there costs serious money, not just tied up in lease or bond costs, but liability insurance, maintenance, parking fees.
As far as operating costs, a 321 with a crew of two pilots and five cabin crew costs about $10,000 an hour (depending on current fuel prices) to fly. The pilots account for less than 5% of that.
12-09-2022, 07:16 AM
#195
gets time off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,243
Just barely beating inflation isn’t a raise 3 years into negotiations. The so called retro they might get is crap also.
12-09-2022, 07:42 AM
#196
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2021
Posts: 73
Spirit is not losing money because of high labor costs. Spirit is losing money because they arent moving metal. Started out as meltdowns due to losing below the wing contractors in our largest bases resulting in several meltdowns. Why were we losing those employees? Low pay and a failure to keep up with logisitics companies plucking away at our workers. That issue still remains as i understand, and now they have the pilot attrition issue, costing this company roughly 3 hours of flying per aircraft per day. They ust wanna get back to 12 hours of utilization. They're not even considering 14 hours, unless that's what the red eye talk is all about. But let's get this clear. Pilot pay being too high is not why this management team isnt showing their shareholders a profit. Let's all just take paycuts! Yay!
It's great to see somebody on here that actually understands the business model and business in general. I hear too much that the ULCC model does not work... its NOT the model, its the MANAGEMENT! Spirit has **** POOR management! As someone who spent 5+ years working for 2 Wall St firms at my first career and now running businesses and investing in businesses I have to say that I see too much focusing on the bottomline everywhere. I believe our business schools have really dropped the ball for a long time.
Every company/business out there including airlines have an Income/Revenue problem, NOT an expense problem. We have to stare at the top line, not the bottomline. We need our utilization UP, we need to be more creative in raising revenues in other areas also. That's the problem here. The ULCC is a proven successful model, but will not succeed with poor management at the helm (same with any other business) Stop selling yourselves short because ALPA and managements have trained us how to think for decades. There is absolutely ZERO reason why we shouldnt match Alaska rates for a short 2yr extension. Sadly, I wish the NC would understand business as well. I would join Alpa and work my way up to NC and ive thought about it, but I have so much on my plate. We need experienced business people on our side during negotiations. P.S. is the "status quo" as far as i'm concerned, Ive heard him speak too much
12-09-2022, 07:52 AM
#197
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2021
Posts: 551
I’m amazed at how few people - even airline pilots - understand this. Airline flying is a capital intensive business.
I’m sure we are getting the 33 new aircraft at less than the 101 million apiece list price but even so, that)s $2 billion plus worth of inventory coming in, and just letting it sit there costs serious money, not just tied up in lease or bond costs, but liability insurance, maintenance, parking fees.
As far as operating costs, a 321 with a crew of two pilots and five cabin crew costs about $10,000 an hour (depending on current fuel prices) to fly. The pilots account for less than 5% of that.
I’m sure we are getting the 33 new aircraft at less than the 101 million apiece list price but even so, that)s $2 billion plus worth of inventory coming in, and just letting it sit there costs serious money, not just tied up in lease or bond costs, but liability insurance, maintenance, parking fees.
As far as operating costs, a 321 with a crew of two pilots and five cabin crew costs about $10,000 an hour (depending on current fuel prices) to fly. The pilots account for less than 5% of that.
Two hour segment with a low cost index on a 321 had fuel at $6300 and crew at $2200 so $4250/hr. Add in lease payments, maintenance, and other operating costs and $10,000/hr sounds about right.
Adding another $2-300 an hour in pilot wages ain’t going to suddenly make the operation cost prohibitive
12-09-2022, 08:00 AM
#198
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: MD-88 FO
Posts: 1,572
Look, this inflation thing is getting out of hand across the board. No one gets raises that match inflation. Not doctors, not lawyers, not McDonald's, etc. etc. etc.
Find me a job field that consistently paces inflation. You can't cuz there isn't one.
This post has nothing to do with whatever rates were about to get handed. This has everything to do with the "doesn't match inflation" claims that have hit these boards so hard lately (and not just the Spirit board)
Find me a job field that consistently paces inflation. You can't cuz there isn't one.
This post has nothing to do with whatever rates were about to get handed. This has everything to do with the "doesn't match inflation" claims that have hit these boards so hard lately (and not just the Spirit board)
12-09-2022, 08:19 AM
#199
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,920
Because we have people on here demanding retro for a contract that isnt amendable yet, but want retro for inflation? Haha. The best is ol ExCargo who wants profit sharing, but because we aren't making money, he wants it off the top revenue line.
So to answer your question on why is it so hard for people to understand, its because we have people who are advocating for the above.
The TA will come out tomorrow and the same 4-5 guys will scream at the moon and declare it "dead on arrival." Most will look at it, judge it on its merits as not being a full contract, decide if this is worth taking to the TPA and then the JCBA, and vote accordingly, while avoiding the back and forth with said 4-5 guys who like to call people's opinions "cancer" and "dangerous" if it doesn't line up with theirs.
Hate to break it to those 4-5 guys but the majority of pilots here dont view themselves as the torch bearers of the industry and that Spirit pilots have some responsibility to vote something down because it isnt Delta, with retro, with profit sharing from top line, and handies from hot FAs.
To the 4-5 guys who will be blowing gaskets on this forum starting around late afternoon tomorrow and until the vote is done, have a Happy Festivus for the rest of us.
So to answer your question on why is it so hard for people to understand, its because we have people who are advocating for the above.
The TA will come out tomorrow and the same 4-5 guys will scream at the moon and declare it "dead on arrival." Most will look at it, judge it on its merits as not being a full contract, decide if this is worth taking to the TPA and then the JCBA, and vote accordingly, while avoiding the back and forth with said 4-5 guys who like to call people's opinions "cancer" and "dangerous" if it doesn't line up with theirs.
Hate to break it to those 4-5 guys but the majority of pilots here dont view themselves as the torch bearers of the industry and that Spirit pilots have some responsibility to vote something down because it isnt Delta, with retro, with profit sharing from top line, and handies from hot FAs.
To the 4-5 guys who will be blowing gaskets on this forum starting around late afternoon tomorrow and until the vote is done, have a Happy Festivus for the rest of us.
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