Back in the black…
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 257
I’m equally puzzled why you and others like you can’t even address the question of whether or not this supposed tactic is effective. AS has a new contract. I don’t particularly like some of their QOL issues, but their management certainly came to the table and their payscales are far superior to NK. B6 has an attrition problem and their payscales are superior to ours - again without screwing over their newbies. The Big Four all have payscales above ours and are in active negotiations - all without screwing over their newbies. So what evidence is there that we wouldn’t be at the negotiating table if we weren’t screwing over our newbies?
As I have repeated, “How long does this have to not work before you’ll concede it’s not going to work?”
Even more puzzling is this; if you and the others actually believe the path to success in negotiations is screwing over our junior troops, why do you get so upset when I say we are screwing over our junior troops? If indeed the intention is to deter people from coming to NK or to increase first year attrition by treating them like cr@p, I would think you would want someone pointing out to potential new hires on a continuing basis that they will be making sort of minimum wage training pay, have no insurance, and pointing out to new hires how much better newbies are treated elsewhere to deter people from being recruited and to increase first year attrition. If all of you are so damn sure you are doing the right thing, why do you get so upset when I point out exactly what you ARE doing?
If you really believe that’s the way to go, it seems like my efforts could only assist you.
As I have repeated, “How long does this have to not work before you’ll concede it’s not going to work?”
Even more puzzling is this; if you and the others actually believe the path to success in negotiations is screwing over our junior troops, why do you get so upset when I say we are screwing over our junior troops? If indeed the intention is to deter people from coming to NK or to increase first year attrition by treating them like cr@p, I would think you would want someone pointing out to potential new hires on a continuing basis that they will be making sort of minimum wage training pay, have no insurance, and pointing out to new hires how much better newbies are treated elsewhere to deter people from being recruited and to increase first year attrition. If all of you are so damn sure you are doing the right thing, why do you get so upset when I point out exactly what you ARE doing?
If you really believe that’s the way to go, it seems like my efforts could only assist you.
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 394
I’ve never claimed that ONLY first year pay ought to be raised. But again I ask; “How long does screwing over first year people not have the desired result before you decide screwing over first year people isn’t helpful?”
Or is that some cult or religious tenet that nobody can ever be convinced isn’t effective?
Or is that some cult or religious tenet that nobody can ever be convinced isn’t effective?
I’ll answer your question with a question. How much of a raise to 1st year pay would justify giving away the biggest bargaining chip we have and “screwing over” the rest of the pilot group?
Last edited by Lakeaffect; 11-04-2022 at 12:24 PM.
#63
Shortsighted
Our pilot group has an enormous amount of chronologically young folks. I fly with FO's under 30 on a regular basis. Suffering for one year financially pales in comparison to being stuck as the lowest paid 12th year captain for more than 20 to 30 years. The math just doesn't make sense when considering the long term.
Just wait until you've been the lowest compensated narrow body 12th year captain pay for the last 20 years and get back to us on the hand wringing over first year pay. I can't believe we have people in our group that don't squarely put attraction and attrition on the shoulders of the folks that actually are paid to make those decisions and it isn't the line slime's responsibility.
If the JCBA goes through my above comments may not carry as much weight, due to what I imagine will be enormous stagnation in the ranks due to inflation and recession but we have to fight what's in front of us today, and move forward as though the purchase will fail. We are not bargaining the SLI and JCBA yet.
Just wait until you've been the lowest compensated narrow body 12th year captain pay for the last 20 years and get back to us on the hand wringing over first year pay. I can't believe we have people in our group that don't squarely put attraction and attrition on the shoulders of the folks that actually are paid to make those decisions and it isn't the line slime's responsibility.
If the JCBA goes through my above comments may not carry as much weight, due to what I imagine will be enormous stagnation in the ranks due to inflation and recession but we have to fight what's in front of us today, and move forward as though the purchase will fail. We are not bargaining the SLI and JCBA yet.
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2021
Posts: 1,035
As someone on first year pay, I hate it. But… Alaska was in negotiations for years and had to vote on a strike authorization to finally get their increase. JetBlue gets paid more but lacks QOL provisions that we have (I bet management would raise pay if we agreed to give them full control of the reserve grid!). We have been in negotiations for… two months. These things take some time, and we will not know if you are correct or not for several more months. But I tend to agree with everyone else. The crazy low training pay and first year pay is likely a major factor forcing management to the table. We can’t provide “proof” other than the fact that their initial proposal was to just raise first year pay.
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2022
Posts: 182
To be clear Alaska was in negotiation for years through a pandemic and an airline industry asking for bailouts. We cannot use their timeline for any kind of measuring stick in todays pilot market. Also they were negotiating the entire contract. We are only looking at compensation right now which is black and white. Work rules will be in the JCBA. Anyone that wants you to think it should take years to negotiate compensation only is trying to lower your expectations.
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2022
Posts: 393
No one should have to “suffer” through a year of poor financial compensation. What kind of person thinks that way? That’s exactly the reason recruiting is going to flat line. No one will come here to “financially suffer” for a year when they can live comfortably where they are at till they get picked up by a legacy.
Having lower first year pay is a management tactic to incentivize people to stay more than a year with much higher pay on the horizon. I don’t disagree with that kind of strategy but the current gap is exceptionally wide and could be narrowed a bit.
Bottom line it should never be an acceptable idea to have first years suffer just to feed the top of the pay scale. It should never be a bargaining chip in the first place their are other bargaining powers available to the union
Having lower first year pay is a management tactic to incentivize people to stay more than a year with much higher pay on the horizon. I don’t disagree with that kind of strategy but the current gap is exceptionally wide and could be narrowed a bit.
Bottom line it should never be an acceptable idea to have first years suffer just to feed the top of the pay scale. It should never be a bargaining chip in the first place their are other bargaining powers available to the union
#67
And judging by this quote from some self-anointed skygod a few pages back:
And with at least half the list having done it at $38.50/hr or less.
So I’ll ask you the same question that so far NOBODY supporting the policy of screwing the newbies has had the cojones to answer;
How long must this not work before you are willing to admit that it WON’T work? Because it damn sure hasn’t worked yet.
https://ibb.co/7vXVcrY]
https://ibb.co/M1hj9Z5]
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Posts: 394
No one should have to “suffer” through a year of poor financial compensation. What kind of person thinks that way? That’s exactly the reason recruiting is going to flat line. No one will come here to “financially suffer” for a year when they can live comfortably where they are at till they get picked up by a legacy.
Having lower first year pay is a management tactic to incentivize people to stay more than a year with much higher pay on the horizon. I don’t disagree with that kind of strategy but the current gap is exceptionally wide and could be narrowed a bit.
Bottom line it should never be an acceptable idea to have first years suffer just to feed the top of the pay scale. It should never be a bargaining chip in the first place their are other bargaining powers available to the union
Having lower first year pay is a management tactic to incentivize people to stay more than a year with much higher pay on the horizon. I don’t disagree with that kind of strategy but the current gap is exceptionally wide and could be narrowed a bit.
Bottom line it should never be an acceptable idea to have first years suffer just to feed the top of the pay scale. It should never be a bargaining chip in the first place their are other bargaining powers available to the union
#69
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,954
No one has to suffer. With the amount of hiring at almost every airline, the higher than ever regional wages, and most airlines at almost double Spirits 1st year pay, people are suffering less now than they have at almost any-point in any of our lifetimes at the airlines. Ideally, yes it would be higher pay, you can place your frustrations at management, not the union. Management, by the way wants only as of recently to raise first year pay not as a change of heart, but because without it they cannot make money.
I’ll take my “get off my lawn” moment and laugh at the new definition of what “suffering” is now for this industry.
Spirit ALPA is more than happy to sign a new deal tomorrow to make our pilots, first year included, the highest paid pilots on the planet. Just waiting for Ted and Bendo
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2019
Position: baller, shot caller
Posts: 1,025
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