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10-01-2022, 04:49 PM

#211

Bluedriver

The REAL Bluedriver

Joined APC: Sep 2011

Position: Airbus Capt

Posts: 6,920

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excargodog

It’s attrition that will force management to the table. As long as they have cheap labor coming in the bottom, they’ll take all of that they can get. And the attrition doesn’t depend upon shafting the newbies. Alaska has an attrition problem and they aren’t shafting the newbies. But attrition drove their management to the table with an offer. Is that the best possible offer? Probably not, but it’s a lot more money than NK pilots are currently making.JetBlue has an attrition problem, without screwing over their newbies. Even Frontier has an attrition problem, without screwing over their newbies any more.

But as long as NK can manage to grow by just hiring more newbies on the cheap, why should they worry much about attrition? Until it’s more costly to replace the people they are losing than it is to pay people to stay, they can afford to stonewall.

I’m not against all rates coming up, that ought to be the goal, but other pilot groups have higher rates than NK without screwing over their newbies. And as I said, give me one example of a major airline where the “we get leverage by screwing over the newbies” model has actually worked. Give me an example, not a hypothetical or wishful thinking, but an example.

So right now, management can just hire newbies on the cheap and solve their problem... Easy. Except management wants to raise 1st year pay, just 1st year pay. So clearly having a low 1st year pay rate doesn't solve management's problems???

Your logic fails the basic test.

10-01-2022, 05:31 PM

#212

Justabusdriver1

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Sep 2022

Posts: 393

I’m losing money coming to spirit at this point. Coming for better qol and bases. But I have the expectation rates will go up to match and out pace regionals. The number of regional fos leaving to join spirit is going to dry up quick if something isn’t done

10-01-2022, 05:38 PM

#213

JulesWinfield

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Jan 2018

Posts: 2,361

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1

Not sure there’s much the company can do. If junior captains are leaving, it likely isn’t because of pay. It’s more likely due to base reductions, quality of life degradation, and single fleet type stagnation. First year pay is criminal, but bumping it to six figures won’t stop the bleeding.

10-01-2022, 06:15 PM

#214

SoFloFlyer

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Nov 2017

Posts: 2,356

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justabusdriver1

If you’re at a regional, it’s a pay cut your first year. You’ll break even in year 2. 3 and above (especially if you upgrade) you’ll make more than you could ever hope for at a regional.

I never understood this logic as people only have to worry about year 1 for….. 1 year lol

10-01-2022, 06:34 PM

#215

Excargodog

Perennial Reserve

Joined APC: Jan 2018

Posts: 12,203

Quote:

Originally Posted by JulesWinfield

Which is the point. It’s attrition that’s the issue, and cheap new hires simply facilitate management to offset the attrition. Screwing newbies doesn’t gain us leverage, it loses us leverage.

10-01-2022, 06:39 PM

#216

Justabusdriver1

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Sep 2022

Posts: 393

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer

Not quite. Break even point now is somewhere in the third year. Yeah you’re making more second year but you’re still playing catch up. Not to mention like others said 2-3 months of training pay isn’t even enough to live off of these days. Contract day one with reduced guaranteed hours would make more sense.

My point was the constant influx of regional pilots is going to slow as many who would have considered coming to a lcc like spirit are going to stay at their current position till they can go direct to mainline. Attrition might be the problem but there’s going to be huge problems on both ends. They’re going to lose that “cheap labor” source if they don’t at least match their pay or come close to it to keep people walking in the door.

10-01-2022, 06:44 PM

#217

Excargodog

Perennial Reserve

Joined APC: Jan 2018

Posts: 12,203

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluedriver

Unless NK management is smarter than you are. But tell me Bluedriver, if screwing new hires is a good idea, why do no other majors do it? Why does JetBlue pay their New hires $94 with a 75 hr Reserve guarantee?

And I don’t see paying a decent wage to new hires stopping B6 attrition much. You guys are losing FOs to the legacies too I hear when I JS with you. Junior CAs not so much. Why do you think you can pay your FOs a decent wage but it would somehow devastate NK? Same for Alaska and WN?

Your logic fails the basic test.

10-01-2022, 06:52 PM

#218

Excargodog

Perennial Reserve

Joined APC: Jan 2018

Posts: 12,203

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoFloFlyer

The reason for the attrition isn’t the year one pay, it’s the subsequent pay that costs junior CAs and more senior FOs. And paying newbies a reasonable wage won’t stop that attrition. It just makes it more costly for management to fail to address it. That’s more leverage than simply screwing over newbies for the sake of tradition.

And yeah, it’s only one year, but you can say the same thing for EVERY year up until year 12. Why not screw over year six guys, if it’s only one year? That logic makes just as much sense as yours.

As for year three upgrades, you seriously think that will survive the SLI?