First Week Openers
10-01-2022, 09:46 AM
#202
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,279
Haha. Exactly. Cargo has it all figured out.
And to CargoDog, yes the plan is working. 4 years ago we didn’t have the attrition because guys like you were still trying to come over here and fly the Airbus for $50/hr
Thankfully the ExCargoDogs willing to work for $50/hr are drying up. And because we didn’t raise first year pay 4 years ago, attrition is the reason and only reason why management is at the table.
Thankfully the number of guys like you, wanting to work for so cheap, is ending, and rates will have to come up.
And to CargoDog, yes the plan is working. 4 years ago we didn’t have the attrition because guys like you were still trying to come over here and fly the Airbus for $50/hr
Thankfully the ExCargoDogs willing to work for $50/hr are drying up. And because we didn’t raise first year pay 4 years ago, attrition is the reason and only reason why management is at the table.
Thankfully the number of guys like you, wanting to work for so cheap, is ending, and rates will have to come up.
nothing else needs to be said.
parking checklist plz.
10-01-2022, 10:47 AM
#203
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Airbus Capt
Posts: 6,920
NK has increased their flying more than the legacy airlines have and the legacies aren’t losing pilots to NK much. What you are touting as evidence of success are general issues throughout the industry. Everybody has training constraints, but not everybody has created their own “B” scale by allowing management to onboard labor at a huge discount to industry standard. The only way that attrition can be stopped is higher pay for those not attriting. Triple newbie pay and the cost of attrition will triple. That’ll get managements attention.
10-01-2022, 11:14 AM
#204
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2022
Posts: 43
The leverage IS attrition, but what demographic is doing the attrition.
The attrition in the senior CA group is negligible. Management knows these guys aren’t going to go over to a legacy and restart at the bottom for 92 an hour on reserve. The attrition that counts is FOs and to a lesser extent junior CAs. And with legacies hiring, these people are leaving, but as long as management can replace them with cheap help, they don’t care. They have no real incentive to raise pay generally. Not when they can replace those leaving at $50 k a year.
They’ll be quite happy to never raise CA pay and backfill their FO losses with guys who work for $50k a year. It’s like a “B” scale. It allows current FO jobs to be replaced by more and more less experienced people. And those people will keep coming as the regional model cracks and breaks, because a type rating in a full sized airliner eventually gives them a step up the ladder to someplace else. And as long as management can replace them with another $50k guy, that’s fine with management.
And it’s been four plus years that Cinquo (and a few others) have been saying that screwing over the newbies was giving us leverage and nothing has changed yet.
The attrition in the senior CA group is negligible. Management knows these guys aren’t going to go over to a legacy and restart at the bottom for 92 an hour on reserve. The attrition that counts is FOs and to a lesser extent junior CAs. And with legacies hiring, these people are leaving, but as long as management can replace them with cheap help, they don’t care. They have no real incentive to raise pay generally. Not when they can replace those leaving at $50 k a year.
They’ll be quite happy to never raise CA pay and backfill their FO losses with guys who work for $50k a year. It’s like a “B” scale. It allows current FO jobs to be replaced by more and more less experienced people. And those people will keep coming as the regional model cracks and breaks, because a type rating in a full sized airliner eventually gives them a step up the ladder to someplace else. And as long as management can replace them with another $50k guy, that’s fine with management.
And it’s been four plus years that Cinquo (and a few others) have been saying that screwing over the newbies was giving us leverage and nothing has changed yet.
10-01-2022, 11:44 AM
#205
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,954
As much as we all know cinco is a 42 year old virgin that tucks his shirt into his underwear, he’s not arguing against raising 1st year pay. Remembering that when the current contract was signed, it was a different era, and 1st year pay being low wasn’t uncommon. Even then, from what I understand, no one was happy about the 1st year pay. If the company wanted to pay 1st year a normal pay rate, they had the opportunity during the last negotiations. As a pilot group, we shouldn’t let the company off the hook by allowing just 1 pay rate increase. The entire pay scale needs to be competitive.
But even a short bus rider like yourself sees how simple this is.
10-01-2022, 01:34 PM
#206
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,203
As much as we all know cinco is a 42 year old virgin that tucks his shirt into his underwear, he’s not arguing against raising 1st year pay. Remembering that when the current contract was signed, it was a different era, and 1st year pay being low wasn’t uncommon. Even then, from what I understand, no one was happy about the 1st year pay. If the company wanted to pay 1st year a normal pay rate, they had the opportunity during the last negotiations. As a pilot group, we shouldn’t let the company off the hook by allowing just 1 pay rate increase. The entire pay scale needs to be competitive.
10-01-2022, 01:50 PM
#207
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,954
Au contraire. Cinco has spent the last four years arguing with me about raising first year pay. From the very beginning he wanted to hold them hostage - long before negotiations had even opened for this contract. He said on numerous occasions it was a zero sum game and the union had no responsibilities for people not yet in property. I disagree. The union has a responsibility to treat fairly with everybody covered by the contract.
I’ve always said and will continue to say that any pay increases for the pilots will be done for every pilot. And that low first year pay needed to be corrected in the next CBA along with all pilot pay.
Revisionist history for you. You make up what’s been said in the past and I have said over and over the same thing.
In the end, the very pay you complain about is the exact pay you applied to and learned your Airbus flows for.
Thankfully our NC didn’t allow the ridiculous provision frontier has to raise first year pay, unilaterally, just below second year pay
Pay for all or pay for none. That’s always been my stance.
That first year pay being low is a recruitment problem and it’s not the unions responsibility to go to the company to raise these rates without raises for everyone. 99% of the pilot agree with this. You’re dense as the day is long, and will never get it. But that’s fine. Keep “first yerrrr pay” yourself. Luckily the NC is doing what we all know is the correct path to a contract
BlueDriver is still waiting for his answer, by the way.
But that’s fine. I’m done with you on this. You’ve been proven wrong, time and time again by many on here.
As CLE to IAH said “parking checklist complete”
10-01-2022, 02:07 PM
#208
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2022
Posts: 43
Au contraire. Cinco has spent the last four years arguing with me about raising first year pay. From the very beginning he wanted to hold them hostage - long before negotiations had even opened for this contract. He said on numerous occasions it was a zero sum game and the union had no responsibilities for people not yet in property. I disagree. The union has a responsibility to treat fairly with everybody covered by the contract.
10-01-2022, 04:07 PM
#209
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,203
The current low rate is what can be used to leverage higher rates for everyone, including 1st year rates most likely to a much higher percentage. Everyone thinks and knows, 1st year pay has to come up, but so does the rest of the scale. It’s the 1st year pay that’s gonna force a quicker resolution for all pay. I mean, could you imagine us settling for a 1st year raise, then it taking another 3+ years to settle the rest of the scale? It wouldn’t really feel like a win. And we’d have screwed ourselves.
But as long as NK can manage to grow by just hiring more newbies on the cheap, why should they worry much about attrition? Until it’s more costly to replace the people they are losing than it is to pay people to stay, they can afford to stonewall.
I’m not against all rates coming up, that ought to be the goal, but other pilot groups have higher rates than NK without screwing over their newbies. And as I said, give me one example of a major airline where the “we get leverage by screwing over the newbies” model has actually worked. Give me an example, not a hypothetical or wishful thinking, but an example.
10-01-2022, 04:37 PM
#210
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2022
Posts: 43
It’s attrition that will force management to the table. As long as they have cheap labor coming in the bottom, they’ll take all of that they can get. And the attrition doesn’t depend upon shafting the newbies. Alaska has an attrition problem and they aren’t shafting the newbies. But attrition drove their management to the table with an offer. Is that the best possible offer? Probably not, but it’s a lot more money than NK pilots are currently making.JetBlue has an attrition problem, without screwing over their newbies. Even Frontier has an attrition problem, without screwing over their newbies any more.
But as long as NK can manage to grow by just hiring more newbies on the cheap, why should they worry much about attrition? Until it’s more costly to replace the people they are losing than it is to pay people to stay, they can afford to stonewall.
I’m not against all rates coming up, that ought to be the goal, but other pilot groups have higher rates than NK without screwing over their newbies. And as I said, give me one example of a major airline where the “we get leverage by screwing over the newbies” model has actually worked. Give me an example, not a hypothetical or wishful thinking, but an example.
But as long as NK can manage to grow by just hiring more newbies on the cheap, why should they worry much about attrition? Until it’s more costly to replace the people they are losing than it is to pay people to stay, they can afford to stonewall.
I’m not against all rates coming up, that ought to be the goal, but other pilot groups have higher rates than NK without screwing over their newbies. And as I said, give me one example of a major airline where the “we get leverage by screwing over the newbies” model has actually worked. Give me an example, not a hypothetical or wishful thinking, but an example.
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