Attrition
02-23-2022, 07:43 PM
#931
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2021
Posts: 274
I think now that attrition is impacting the whole pilot group it is a little disingenuous to say that new hire and FO rates are only the company's problem. People's upgrade times and the company's expansion plans are now directly negatively impacted by this. The whole pilot group is suffering right now as there is no incentive for a first year FO to stay when a Legacy comes knocking on the door.
02-23-2022, 07:51 PM
#932
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,909
It’s in the company’s hands, better or worse, it’s their decision to work with ALPA ie. pay raises, or continue to live in delusion that it will sort itself out
02-24-2022, 12:00 AM
#933
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,771
You said the “union painted us into a corner with FO rates” and that’s an ridiculous thing to say.
You seem to think that what I am saying is somehow disparaging to the union, nothing further from the truth. I even stated I can see why it was negotiated that way at the time, it made sense. It does however complicate things now due to attrition, shortages and the majors hiring. Sure we can agree it’s up to the company to solve the hiring problem but at the end of the day the union will decide how the pilot budget is divided up. We have a sloped scale on the top end and a punishing cap on the low end. Once upgrades slow down there will be issues.
Do we need better pay rates across the board, yes
Did the union cause FOs to leave because of the pay rates, no.
Again, I never said the union causes pilots to leave, stop projecting whatever issue you have on me.
75% aprox of the pilot group voted for that
It made sense at the time, again something I mentioned.
Want better pay rates? Do does 3000 Spirit pilots and 1800 Frontier pilots. There is a process. If the company wants to pay more in the meantime, there is a process. The Union didn’t paint anyone into a corner, 75% of pilots said “yup, good to me.”
Never disagreed with this and I never mentioned any short term solution. I nearly stated that we need to get better pay rates and that the rates agreed upon at the time, which made sense then, are hindering now.
You have been here a minute and that same Union is the same one that passed the LOA that allowed you to stay on property instead of collecting an unemployment check.
Actually I have been here less than that.
So if you don’t like my response, so be it. I’ll see you at the picketing events.
It has nothing to do with liking or not liking your response. Rather, I feel you took what I said the wrong way and went off in some rant.
You seem to think that what I am saying is somehow disparaging to the union, nothing further from the truth. I even stated I can see why it was negotiated that way at the time, it made sense. It does however complicate things now due to attrition, shortages and the majors hiring. Sure we can agree it’s up to the company to solve the hiring problem but at the end of the day the union will decide how the pilot budget is divided up. We have a sloped scale on the top end and a punishing cap on the low end. Once upgrades slow down there will be issues.
Do we need better pay rates across the board, yes
Did the union cause FOs to leave because of the pay rates, no.
Again, I never said the union causes pilots to leave, stop projecting whatever issue you have on me.
75% aprox of the pilot group voted for that
It made sense at the time, again something I mentioned.
Want better pay rates? Do does 3000 Spirit pilots and 1800 Frontier pilots. There is a process. If the company wants to pay more in the meantime, there is a process. The Union didn’t paint anyone into a corner, 75% of pilots said “yup, good to me.”
Never disagreed with this and I never mentioned any short term solution. I nearly stated that we need to get better pay rates and that the rates agreed upon at the time, which made sense then, are hindering now.
You have been here a minute and that same Union is the same one that passed the LOA that allowed you to stay on property instead of collecting an unemployment check.
Actually I have been here less than that.
So if you don’t like my response, so be it. I’ll see you at the picketing events.
It has nothing to do with liking or not liking your response. Rather, I feel you took what I said the wrong way and went off in some rant.
02-24-2022, 06:14 AM
#934
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Position: 1900D CA
Posts: 3,476
I think you guys are looking at this all wrong.
Everyone on here is freaking out about attrition. But the attrition is exactly what we want and need. Every pilot that leaves here for a legacy is the leverage we need to get a better contract. It's that simple. I'm staying here (F9) and I absolutely want this airline to be as successful as possible. I believe we are the next Southwest. But if the company gets into a severe staffing shortage and has to cancel tons of flights due to pilot attrition, I'm going to profit off of that.
Let guys leave for a legacy. Let this place stumble. It will course correct when and only when they must. And when that happens, I'm going to get paid more. And you will too. It's all good guys. We've got them by the balls. It's never been a better time to be an airline pilot.
This industry is cyclical as fuc€. Guys say at AA for over 15 years with zero hiring or upgrades, and crap pay! Virtually every airline has furloughed, downgraded, and taken pay cuts. Times can be really really bad. This isn't one of those times.
Max out your 401k, pay down your debts, save money and enjoy your life. We are going to make more money out of this situation.
Everyone on here is freaking out about attrition. But the attrition is exactly what we want and need. Every pilot that leaves here for a legacy is the leverage we need to get a better contract. It's that simple. I'm staying here (F9) and I absolutely want this airline to be as successful as possible. I believe we are the next Southwest. But if the company gets into a severe staffing shortage and has to cancel tons of flights due to pilot attrition, I'm going to profit off of that.
Let guys leave for a legacy. Let this place stumble. It will course correct when and only when they must. And when that happens, I'm going to get paid more. And you will too. It's all good guys. We've got them by the balls. It's never been a better time to be an airline pilot.
This industry is cyclical as fuc€. Guys say at AA for over 15 years with zero hiring or upgrades, and crap pay! Virtually every airline has furloughed, downgraded, and taken pay cuts. Times can be really really bad. This isn't one of those times.
Max out your 401k, pay down your debts, save money and enjoy your life. We are going to make more money out of this situation.
02-24-2022, 06:37 AM
#935
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 686
Biffle and Christie addressed the pilot attrition issue today on the Barclay’s Fireside Chat. Both stated that attrition was “ticking a little higher”, but both insisted that there were still plenty of apps on file, and that apps had doubled since the merger announcement. Biffle even threw out a hypothetical that even if they opened their own flight school and paid to train pilots from zero to hero, it would cost them 30mil per year, or 1-2% of revenues. He mentioned this in an almost joking tone, almost as if it would never have to happen, but they clearly have analyzed this route. He then closed with a remark completely dismissing the idea that a pilot shortage would be any cause to materially affect the business.
02-24-2022, 06:45 AM
#936
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 12,112
I think you guys are looking at this all wrong.
Everyone on here is freaking out about attrition. But the attrition is exactly what we want and need. Every pilot that leaves here for a legacy is the leverage we need to get a better contract. It's that simple. I'm staying here (F9) and I absolutely want this airline to be as successful as possible. I believe we are the next Southwest. But if the company gets into a severe staffing shortage and has to cancel tons of flights due to pilot attrition, I'm going to profit off of that.
Let guys leave for a legacy. Let this place stumble. It will course correct when and only when they must. And when that happens, I'm going to get paid more. And you will too. It's all good guys. We've got them by the balls. It's never been a better time to be an airline pilot.
This industry is cyclical as fuc€. Guys say at AA for over 15 years with zero hiring or upgrades, and crap pay! Virtually every airline has furloughed, downgraded, and taken pay cuts. Times can be really really bad. This isn't one of those times.
Max out your 401k, pay down your debts, save money and enjoy your life. We are going to make more money out of this situation.
Everyone on here is freaking out about attrition. But the attrition is exactly what we want and need. Every pilot that leaves here for a legacy is the leverage we need to get a better contract. It's that simple. I'm staying here (F9) and I absolutely want this airline to be as successful as possible. I believe we are the next Southwest. But if the company gets into a severe staffing shortage and has to cancel tons of flights due to pilot attrition, I'm going to profit off of that.
Let guys leave for a legacy. Let this place stumble. It will course correct when and only when they must. And when that happens, I'm going to get paid more. And you will too. It's all good guys. We've got them by the balls. It's never been a better time to be an airline pilot.
This industry is cyclical as fuc€. Guys say at AA for over 15 years with zero hiring or upgrades, and crap pay! Virtually every airline has furloughed, downgraded, and taken pay cuts. Times can be really really bad. This isn't one of those times.
Max out your 401k, pay down your debts, save money and enjoy your life. We are going to make more money out of this situation.
when it comes to market share,
Decreased business flying - advantage ULCC
Decreased international flying - advantage ULCC
Demise of regional flying - advantage ULCC
Demise of hub and spoke - advantage ULCC
Increase in fuel costs - that sucks, but still advantage ULCC
While, yeah, a rising tide lifts all boats - and that would be better - there will still be some winners even in a recession. My bet is Sprontier will be one of them.
02-24-2022, 07:20 AM
#937
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2019
Posts: 988
THIS^^^^
when it comes to market share,
Decreased business flying - advantage ULCC
Decreased international flying - advantage ULCC
Demise of regional flying - advantage ULCC
Demise of hub and spoke - advantage ULCC
Increase in fuel costs - that sucks, but still advantage ULCC
While, yeah, a rising tide lifts all boats - and that would be better - there will still be some winners even in a recession. My bet is Sprontier will be one of them.
when it comes to market share,
Decreased business flying - advantage ULCC
Decreased international flying - advantage ULCC
Demise of regional flying - advantage ULCC
Demise of hub and spoke - advantage ULCC
Increase in fuel costs - that sucks, but still advantage ULCC
While, yeah, a rising tide lifts all boats - and that would be better - there will still be some winners even in a recession. My bet is Sprontier will be one of them.
02-24-2022, 07:47 AM
#938
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,909
Management won't decide if people want to come and stay, the need to fill the seats at the controls dictates the amount they will spend.
02-24-2022, 07:48 AM
#939
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2019
Posts: 988
Management doesn't care if this is a place people want to come and stay, just a place people want to come for a few years. Management doesnt care if its a 25 year CA at the controls or a 2 year Riddle grad, they just want someone at the controls to generate revenue and the less that costs, the better for them.
Management won't decide if people want to come and stay, the need to fill the seats at the controls dictates the amount they will spend.
Management won't decide if people want to come and stay, the need to fill the seats at the controls dictates the amount they will spend.
02-24-2022, 07:54 AM
#940
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2021
Posts: 274
Management doesn't care if this is a place people want to come and stay, just a place people want to come for a few years. Management doesnt care if its a 25 year CA at the controls or a 2 year Riddle grad, they just want someone at the controls to generate revenue and the less that costs, the better for them.
Management won't decide if people want to come and stay, the need to fill the seats at the controls dictates the amount they will spend.
Management won't decide if people want to come and stay, the need to fill the seats at the controls dictates the amount they will spend.
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