Attrition
01-21-2022, 10:52 AM
#541
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2021
Posts: 73
The cool thing is that if you live in one of the Legacy bases and you are even a junior CA here... i think its an easy decision to leave. Heck, at UAL you dont even need WB right away, just bid A320 and snooze through training, it would be a breeze. Sit reserve maybe 2 months tops. After a year or two you can upgrade on the A320 and get significantly more pay than what you would as a 4yr CA at Spirit or go WB FO after you get 2000 below you. Delta, is about 2.5yr upgrade in NYC. I guess it all comes down to age though. For all FO's its easy decision. For junior CA's it will be a 2yr sacrifice, still not terrible if you are younger than 45, easier if younger than 40
01-21-2022, 12:10 PM
#542
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,309
Those "poor souls" are going to be making $174/hr on second year pay.
I am at UA and between the 777 and 747 I did 3 years on reserve and I had my day off moved a total of 2 times. Not exactly the boogeyman it is made out to be. You get 6 days off in a row that can't be moved by the company, so you always get at least one weekend day off and usually one full weekend off. The other 6 or 7 days can be moved, but only for an intl trip and only if they have no other reserves available. Those days are a bit of a pain as you can't "count" on them, but you can also be proactive and pick up trips that make it impossible for the company to move them. ie, if I have days off Th-Sat I can pick up a trip that gets back on Wed and then the company cant move my days. So, I would definitely rather not have any of those days movable, but it really was not that common for them to be a problem in my time on the fleets. For my time on those fleets as a local guy I always have said--- It is crack cocaine, you know it is bad for you but you keep doing it anyway!! That is because the rest of you life becomes so nice. I will caveat that with the fact that I have no issue with sleeping on my rest break, so I come back from an Asia trip without any difficulty.
The biggest issue with reserve at UA (and prob every other airline) is answering the question of are you a commuter??? If the answer to that question is "yes," then reserve is a complete pain in the @#$%. If the answer to that question is "no," then there are many ways within our system to improve your QOL on reserve. If you are unwilling/unable to move to within 2.5 hours of the base then your "jumping off a bridge assessment may be correct." I don't take the idea of moving lightly as I know that it is a huge deal for most of us, but living in/near your domicile is always a good idea as a new hire and it is an extremely good idea as a WB new hire.
In my 3 years on reserve I would sometimes be aggressive and try to "pick up" trips and sometimes try to sit back and just collect gaurantee pay. As a local both of those options were available and being on reserve and getting a short call assignment (2.5 hours to report) was not a big deal. In those months that I sat back and took shortcalls and didn't pick up trips, I worked way less days than even the most senior lineholder. Now if I was a commtuer getting a bunch of short call assignments in a month would suck as you would have to commute in to sit around and likely not get called. Frequently the next day or day after you would get another shortcall, so those assignments and get you in a cycle of repeating and with commuting that is horible.
So regardles of airline, I will always recommend that a pilot live in or near one of your airline bases. Given the craziness of hiring right now, you can probably actual choose which airline to go to based on having a base available where you want to live. If you want to live in the NE or on the West coast, UA has some unbelievable opportunities right now. New hires getting 777/787 as an initial assignment, and upgrades to Captain being available as soon as you complete probation and have 500 hours at UA. Not recommending an immediate bid to Captain mind you, but we will have pilots on 2nd year pay as Captains very soon---just crazy!!!
I am at UA and between the 777 and 747 I did 3 years on reserve and I had my day off moved a total of 2 times. Not exactly the boogeyman it is made out to be. You get 6 days off in a row that can't be moved by the company, so you always get at least one weekend day off and usually one full weekend off. The other 6 or 7 days can be moved, but only for an intl trip and only if they have no other reserves available. Those days are a bit of a pain as you can't "count" on them, but you can also be proactive and pick up trips that make it impossible for the company to move them. ie, if I have days off Th-Sat I can pick up a trip that gets back on Wed and then the company cant move my days. So, I would definitely rather not have any of those days movable, but it really was not that common for them to be a problem in my time on the fleets. For my time on those fleets as a local guy I always have said--- It is crack cocaine, you know it is bad for you but you keep doing it anyway!! That is because the rest of you life becomes so nice. I will caveat that with the fact that I have no issue with sleeping on my rest break, so I come back from an Asia trip without any difficulty.
The biggest issue with reserve at UA (and prob every other airline) is answering the question of are you a commuter??? If the answer to that question is "yes," then reserve is a complete pain in the @#$%. If the answer to that question is "no," then there are many ways within our system to improve your QOL on reserve. If you are unwilling/unable to move to within 2.5 hours of the base then your "jumping off a bridge assessment may be correct." I don't take the idea of moving lightly as I know that it is a huge deal for most of us, but living in/near your domicile is always a good idea as a new hire and it is an extremely good idea as a WB new hire.
In my 3 years on reserve I would sometimes be aggressive and try to "pick up" trips and sometimes try to sit back and just collect gaurantee pay. As a local both of those options were available and being on reserve and getting a short call assignment (2.5 hours to report) was not a big deal. In those months that I sat back and took shortcalls and didn't pick up trips, I worked way less days than even the most senior lineholder. Now if I was a commtuer getting a bunch of short call assignments in a month would suck as you would have to commute in to sit around and likely not get called. Frequently the next day or day after you would get another shortcall, so those assignments and get you in a cycle of repeating and with commuting that is horible.
So regardles of airline, I will always recommend that a pilot live in or near one of your airline bases. Given the craziness of hiring right now, you can probably actual choose which airline to go to based on having a base available where you want to live. If you want to live in the NE or on the West coast, UA has some unbelievable opportunities right now. New hires getting 777/787 as an initial assignment, and upgrades to Captain being available as soon as you complete probation and have 500 hours at UA. Not recommending an immediate bid to Captain mind you, but we will have pilots on 2nd year pay as Captains very soon---just crazy!!!
01-21-2022, 01:27 PM
#543
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2013
Posts: 953
At UA on reserve you get 12 days off in a 30 day month and 13 days off in a 31 day month.
If your assigned airplane/base combination doesn't have any Intl flying (defined as Europe/ Asia/ beyond 15 south in South America) then you will get 1 day off that is "movable" by the company (they call it a Flexible day off - isn' that cute). All the rest of your days off are not movable by the company. So for the domstic reserves that means that you have one day that can be moved by the company if they have no other options. It can only be moved if there are no other reserves that are available without moving the day. It also can't be moved for a trip that starts on the original day off. So they can't give you a 1 day trip on that day off and just move the day off somewhere else. If tomorrow was your FDO they could give you a 2 day that leaves today and gets back tomorrow.
If your assigned airplane/base does have intl flying then you will get 6 HDOs (Holy Days Off) that can't be moved by the company and the rest will be RDOs (Regular Days Off) and 1 FDO. The RDOs are different than the FDO in that the only way they can be moved is if the trip they are trying to cover is an intl trip and all the other restrictions of an FDO move are met.
In either scenario the day off that was moved is always "restored" on your next scheduled work day so you don't end up with less total days off. Your number of days off is "guaranteed" but (in rare circumstances) 1 (or more for Intl) of the eligible days off could be moved.
Right now all the 737 and A320 bases are domestic. SFO, LAX and DEN are domestic on the 767. ORD, IAH, DCA, and EWR are Intl on the 767. All 777 and 787 bases are intl.
Again, this Intl Reserve setup is a bad situation, but to a certain extent it comes with the territory of having the largest WB fleet. Intl cancellations are extremely expensive so the company wants/needs this flexibility. Even though my experience has been that it is not used very frequently, it does suck in the QOL world. With that being said I think the company is going to have to pay a very steep price to keep this level of flexibility going forward as this is one of the most hated parts of the Intl reserve system. I suspect/hope that either the number of days that the company gets every month that can be moved will go down or a financial reward will be paid to the pilot that gets their day moved will be incorporated in the next contract, but I doubt that this will ever go completely away.
I think most WB reserves that live local will tell you that being local on WB reserve is the best gig going and that you will spend more time at home than you ever have in your aviation career. On call yes, but at home. I think that most WB reserves that are commuters will tell you that being a commuter on WB reserve is the absolutely worst gig going and you will spend more time in your crash pad than you ever have in your aviation career!!!
If your assigned airplane/base combination doesn't have any Intl flying (defined as Europe/ Asia/ beyond 15 south in South America) then you will get 1 day off that is "movable" by the company (they call it a Flexible day off - isn' that cute). All the rest of your days off are not movable by the company. So for the domstic reserves that means that you have one day that can be moved by the company if they have no other options. It can only be moved if there are no other reserves that are available without moving the day. It also can't be moved for a trip that starts on the original day off. So they can't give you a 1 day trip on that day off and just move the day off somewhere else. If tomorrow was your FDO they could give you a 2 day that leaves today and gets back tomorrow.
If your assigned airplane/base does have intl flying then you will get 6 HDOs (Holy Days Off) that can't be moved by the company and the rest will be RDOs (Regular Days Off) and 1 FDO. The RDOs are different than the FDO in that the only way they can be moved is if the trip they are trying to cover is an intl trip and all the other restrictions of an FDO move are met.
In either scenario the day off that was moved is always "restored" on your next scheduled work day so you don't end up with less total days off. Your number of days off is "guaranteed" but (in rare circumstances) 1 (or more for Intl) of the eligible days off could be moved.
Right now all the 737 and A320 bases are domestic. SFO, LAX and DEN are domestic on the 767. ORD, IAH, DCA, and EWR are Intl on the 767. All 777 and 787 bases are intl.
Again, this Intl Reserve setup is a bad situation, but to a certain extent it comes with the territory of having the largest WB fleet. Intl cancellations are extremely expensive so the company wants/needs this flexibility. Even though my experience has been that it is not used very frequently, it does suck in the QOL world. With that being said I think the company is going to have to pay a very steep price to keep this level of flexibility going forward as this is one of the most hated parts of the Intl reserve system. I suspect/hope that either the number of days that the company gets every month that can be moved will go down or a financial reward will be paid to the pilot that gets their day moved will be incorporated in the next contract, but I doubt that this will ever go completely away.
I think most WB reserves that live local will tell you that being local on WB reserve is the best gig going and that you will spend more time at home than you ever have in your aviation career. On call yes, but at home. I think that most WB reserves that are commuters will tell you that being a commuter on WB reserve is the absolutely worst gig going and you will spend more time in your crash pad than you ever have in your aviation career!!!
01-21-2022, 01:38 PM
#544
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,309
At UA on reserve you get 12 days off in a 30 day month and 13 days off in a 31 day month.
If your assigned airplane/base combination doesn't have any Intl flying (defined as Europe/ Asia/ beyond 15 south in South America) then you will get 1 day off that is "movable" by the company (they call it a Flexible day off - isn' that cute). All the rest of your days off are not movable by the company. So for the domstic reserves that means that you have one day that can be moved by the company if they have no other options. It can only be moved if there are no other reserves that are available without moving the day. It also can't be moved for a trip that starts on the original day off. So they can't give you a 1 day trip on that day off and just move the day off somewhere else. If tomorrow was your FDO they could give you a 2 day that leaves today and gets back tomorrow.
If your assigned airplane/base does have intl flying then you will get 6 HDOs (Holy Days Off) that can't be moved by the company and the rest will be RDOs (Regular Days Off) and 1 FDO. The RDOs are different than the FDO in that the only way they can be moved is if the trip they are trying to cover is an intl trip and all the other restrictions of an FDO move are met.
In either scenario the day off that was moved is always "restored" on your next scheduled work day so you don't end up with less total days off. Your number of days off is "guaranteed" but (in rare circumstances) 1 (or more for Intl) of the eligible days off could be moved.
Right now all the 737 and A320 bases are domestic. SFO, LAX and DEN are domestic on the 767. ORD, IAH, DCA, and EWR are Intl on the 767. All 777 and 787 bases are intl.
Again, this Intl Reserve setup is a bad situation, but to a certain extent it comes with the territory of having the largest WB fleet. Intl cancellations are extremely expensive so the company wants/needs this flexibility. Even though my experience has been that it is not used very frequently, it does suck in the QOL world. With that being said I think the company is going to have to pay a very steep price to keep this level of flexibility going forward as this is one of the most hated parts of the Intl reserve system. I suspect/hope that either the number of days that the company gets every month that can be moved will go down or a financial reward will be paid to the pilot that gets their day moved will be incorporated in the next contract, but I doubt that this will ever go completely away.
I think most WB reserves that live local will tell you that being local on WB reserve is the best gig going and that you will spend more time at home than you ever have in your aviation career. On call yes, but at home. I think that most WB reserves that are commuters will tell you that being a commuter on WB reserve is the absolutely worst gig going and you will spend more time in your crash pad than you ever have in your aviation career!!!
If your assigned airplane/base combination doesn't have any Intl flying (defined as Europe/ Asia/ beyond 15 south in South America) then you will get 1 day off that is "movable" by the company (they call it a Flexible day off - isn' that cute). All the rest of your days off are not movable by the company. So for the domstic reserves that means that you have one day that can be moved by the company if they have no other options. It can only be moved if there are no other reserves that are available without moving the day. It also can't be moved for a trip that starts on the original day off. So they can't give you a 1 day trip on that day off and just move the day off somewhere else. If tomorrow was your FDO they could give you a 2 day that leaves today and gets back tomorrow.
If your assigned airplane/base does have intl flying then you will get 6 HDOs (Holy Days Off) that can't be moved by the company and the rest will be RDOs (Regular Days Off) and 1 FDO. The RDOs are different than the FDO in that the only way they can be moved is if the trip they are trying to cover is an intl trip and all the other restrictions of an FDO move are met.
In either scenario the day off that was moved is always "restored" on your next scheduled work day so you don't end up with less total days off. Your number of days off is "guaranteed" but (in rare circumstances) 1 (or more for Intl) of the eligible days off could be moved.
Right now all the 737 and A320 bases are domestic. SFO, LAX and DEN are domestic on the 767. ORD, IAH, DCA, and EWR are Intl on the 767. All 777 and 787 bases are intl.
Again, this Intl Reserve setup is a bad situation, but to a certain extent it comes with the territory of having the largest WB fleet. Intl cancellations are extremely expensive so the company wants/needs this flexibility. Even though my experience has been that it is not used very frequently, it does suck in the QOL world. With that being said I think the company is going to have to pay a very steep price to keep this level of flexibility going forward as this is one of the most hated parts of the Intl reserve system. I suspect/hope that either the number of days that the company gets every month that can be moved will go down or a financial reward will be paid to the pilot that gets their day moved will be incorporated in the next contract, but I doubt that this will ever go completely away.
I think most WB reserves that live local will tell you that being local on WB reserve is the best gig going and that you will spend more time at home than you ever have in your aviation career. On call yes, but at home. I think that most WB reserves that are commuters will tell you that being a commuter on WB reserve is the absolutely worst gig going and you will spend more time in your crash pad than you ever have in your aviation career!!!
01-21-2022, 02:29 PM
#546
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,309
what you are talking about is a from award to building the final schedule, they could change it to make the transition work.
Last edited by Halon1211; 01-21-2022 at 02:58 PM.
01-21-2022, 03:39 PM
#547
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,967
No. This is clearly above your comprehension. Keep thinking that Spirit reserve pilots have guaranteed days off.
01-21-2022, 04:04 PM
#550
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,967
Halon should spend more time reading our almost 4 year old CBA and less time trolling.
So yes, your days off as a reserve pilot are not guaranteed at Spirit. The company can have you work on a movable day off with 72 hours notice.
So yes, your days off as a reserve pilot are not guaranteed at Spirit. The company can have you work on a movable day off with 72 hours notice.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
