Attrition
10-21-2022, 03:25 PM
#2232
Clear ECAM
Joined APC: Oct 2014
Posts: 934
Spent a couple years at JB and never once saw a pilot asked to clean the airplane whether they were DH or nonrev or otherwise. Never heard of any admit to doing it either. I nonreved all the time and never once was offered a pair of blue gloves.
10-21-2022, 03:35 PM
#2233
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,909
Glad to hear guys cleaning the plane is far from the norm.
10-21-2022, 03:40 PM
#2234
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2019
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 131
It is because the way we get paid is stupid. We only get paid when we move. Never mind we work a lot harder during a turn than in cruise.
Regular pay should start at scheduled departure time -:30, and end at actual/scheduled arrival +:15 for every individual leg. Any requirement to do more, engine run, repo, jetway doesn't work but cargo door is opened, stay to run the APU in FLL/clean the back (WTF), aso should be extra.
Reason it won't happen: Company doesn't want it, and legacy senior WB don't want it.
Regular pay should start at scheduled departure time -:30, and end at actual/scheduled arrival +:15 for every individual leg. Any requirement to do more, engine run, repo, jetway doesn't work but cargo door is opened, stay to run the APU in FLL/clean the back (WTF), aso should be extra.
Reason it won't happen: Company doesn't want it, and legacy senior WB don't want it.
Maybe it would come out as a wash, but personally I would rather it be like it is. Any efforts to change it would be a freaking mess, and it would be utterly impossible to compare pay between airlines for pattern bargaining purposes.
10-21-2022, 04:27 PM
#2235
Line holder
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,330
Agree with all of your observations. Anyway, I was actually asking if a JB guy would answer.
Is the cabin cleanup documented as a requirement in your FOM? or is it just "we've always done it this way to be Team Players".
If there is one thing I've learned from my 88 year old MIL is that Judge Judy requires everything in writing, but from my observations, contract negotiations, NOI investigations, can use historic acceptance of unwritten duties as precedent.
Is the cabin cleanup documented as a requirement in your FOM? or is it just "we've always done it this way to be Team Players".
If there is one thing I've learned from my 88 year old MIL is that Judge Judy requires everything in writing, but from my observations, contract negotiations, NOI investigations, can use historic acceptance of unwritten duties as precedent.
Yup. Did ACMI for 7 years, did my own planning, get MX done, keep things going: part of the job. Corporate for 8 years, pulled the lav, cleaned the cabin, loaded bags: part of the job. Now 121 for 10 years, make sure power and air are connected before I leave the cockpit. Cleaning the cabin: somebody else's problem.
Edit to add: Pretty sure there would be cleaners contracted in an NY minute if pilots could claim 30 minute cleaning pay.
(don't expect me to do someone else's job for free until I see our execs vacuum their office at 5pm on Friday)
Edit to add: Pretty sure there would be cleaners contracted in an NY minute if pilots could claim 30 minute cleaning pay.
(don't expect me to do someone else's job for free until I see our execs vacuum their office at 5pm on Friday)
10-21-2022, 04:32 PM
#2236
Line holder
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,330
You don't want it either, because if pay were based off of duty time, the hourly rates wouldn't be as high. Part of the reason we can justify the hourly rate we do is that the time isn't based on the entire time we are at the airport. That's why I always find the "I'm not getting paid right now" argument to be stupid. Sure we are. We are being compensated for our jobs, which include things that are before/after block out/in, and the way that compensation is calculated is off of block time, and the pay rates are higher to reflect the fact that the block time isn't all of the hours that you're at work.
Maybe it would come out as a wash, but personally I would rather it be like it is. Any efforts to change it would be a freaking mess, and it would be utterly impossible to compare pay between airlines for pattern bargaining purposes.
Maybe it would come out as a wash, but personally I would rather it be like it is. Any efforts to change it would be a freaking mess, and it would be utterly impossible to compare pay between airlines for pattern bargaining purposes.
So yes, I do want it, even though it would cost me because I bid 5 leg 4 days.
10-21-2022, 05:28 PM
#2237
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 3,230
10-21-2022, 07:58 PM
#2239
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: blueJet
Posts: 4,535
How would FAs go out of their way for a DH pilot? Plenty of ways. Giving us better seats, offering free headphones, making sure my Coke (Pepsi lately) never runs out, handing me extra Eat-Up boxes, checking if I need anything every time they walk through the cabin, keeping an overhead bin empty for our bags knowing our inbound flight is late and there will be two pilots boarding last-minute… the kind of stuff that no flight attendant is required to do, but they still went out of their way to treat two DH pilots like part of the team. I’m not high maintenance, so I don’t need the attention - but I can still notice and appreciate the effort. These guys are the complete opposite of those entitled FAs that think “I’m going to write up any Pilot that doesn’t clean the cabin.” Work here long enough and you’ll learn to tell the difference.
If I cross 6 or 8 seatbelts will they get home any quicker? No, but I have reciprocated their kindness. We both went above and beyond for our fellow professionals. It’s human nature.
10-21-2022, 08:34 PM
#2240
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2019
Position: Yes
Posts: 159
How would FAs go out of their way for a DH pilot? Plenty of ways. Giving us better seats, offering free headphones, making sure my Coke (Pepsi lately) never runs out, handing me extra Eat-Up boxes, checking if I need anything every time they walk through the cabin, keeping an overhead bin empty for our bags knowing our inbound flight is late and there will be two pilots boarding last-minute… the kind of stuff that no flight attendant is required to do, but they still went out of their way to treat two DH pilots like part of the team.
For you NK'ers:
David Neeleman used to write some of these old timer pilots personal love letters like a desperate girlfriend when they went above and beyond. It really got in their heads and validated their forward leaner tendencies. They haven't been the same since. The same pilots usually have a fetish of flying with the dome light on. It's like a religion.
The combined airline is going to be an incredible circus.
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