Bgood

I'm sensing Mayo and hot-dog has history here on the NK thread? Maybe I need to ketchup

CincoDeMayo

I took his mom Dorothy out a few times, for a nice seafood dinner. I never called her back. He won’t let it go.

Halon1211

I’m here just for the comments

Bgood

Filler

keysersose

What would cost Jetblue more money? Raising first year pay $10/hour or 12th year pay $1/hr? Bluedriver is right. We all spend one year on first year pay and 20-30 years on 12th year pay. Pilots have always focused on the top of the pay scale because that is where they spend the majority of their career. It's the smart thing to do. Attracting pilots is the companies job. When negotiating at the table there are pilot wants and company wants. First year pay is a company want when there is a pilot shortage. We shouldn't waste any energy on it. I've heard Jetblue is trying to raise the 190 pay scale without raising any of the others and the union is saying no. Is that right or wrong? Think about it.

Excargodog

So you think NKs current training pay, no insurance initially, then $61 an hour with a 72 hour guarantee represents SUCCESS for that theory?

And have you ever had any math or queuing theory? Or just common sense? Pilots only spend one year of their career on ANY year of their career, not just the first year. Saying “PI$$ on the new hires, they are the companies responsibility” is wrong, tactically, strategically, morally, and legally.

Bluedriver

1. Most pilots only spend 1 year at the 12 year pay scale?

2. That "theory" hasn't been tested in this environment, in the context of Spirit's contract, as it was negotiated many years ago.

3. Spirit's management may be irrational enough to self-sabotage its own business plans out of incompetence, negligence or spite.

The rest of the industry's management has clearly got the message, that 1st year pilots need much better pay, and if the JCBA is with JB, I'm confident, very confident, it will be properly addressed.

Excargodog

And I hope you are right as far as a JCBA giving competitive first year pay, I really do, but as the NK example clearly shows, some managements are quite content to see high attrition (the topic of this thread) of FOs and junior CAs because they can replace the FOs with new FOs who they are paying $50K a year. And that holds down payscales across the board, because that allows them to suppress FO pay with impunity, and the stats pretty much show that.



I have NEVER objected to B6s first year pay, since it is on a par with most and certainly better than that of F9, NK, or Hawaiian for that matter.

What I object to is the oft repeated mantra that casting the newbies fate to the whims of management is inherently logical, because it isn’t. Ideally, it should cost management MORE to bring on a new guy than to allow attrition to occur. THAT would provide real leverage for FO raises and junior CA raises that could stem attrition. And maybe the B6 management IS more enlightened than that of NK, but it truly seems like NK is quite happy to keep payscales low enough that they can actually depend upon more senior pilots moving on to be replaced by $50k newbies as part of their business model. Same for F9.

And yeah, at our NK current attrition rate MOST pilots will NEVER see that 12 year rate at all. Certainly not at NK.

keysersose

Don't be a Cramer and shake hands on the first offer of a years supply of coffee. You are a pilot. You have situational awareness. The current situation is that if Spirit management doesn't pay more to new hires they will have empty classes followed by cancelled flights. Instead of saving a few million a year they will lose hundreds of millions. This is the pilot shortage we have all been told was going to happen for the last 30 years. It's actually happening now. Every pilot in the country needs to realize this and not fight our companies fight for them. The difference between pilots having a 5 million dollar career and a 10 million dollar career is not wrapped up in first year pay. It's wrapped up in 12th year pay.

Excargodog

Hey, I’m past first year pay. This isn’t about me, it’s about the next guy. Look at NK ALPAs own graph. NK FOs are trapped in lag and the scheme didn’t work. And NK management doesn’t give a rat’s rear about it. They are heading for the exits. But even if they weren’t they STILL wouldn’t give a rat’s rear about it because they would happily pick up the leavings as the regionals crumble and when those are gone, they’ll take 1500 hour wonders from the puppy mills. They WANT high attrition because it keeps the entire FO cadre on the junior end of an already industry lagging payscale.

Are you too blind to see that your model isn’t working? And are you too callus about your fellow pilots to see this isn’t fair to the new guys? The union is responsible to look after them too, not use them as hostages in the bargaining.