Bluedriver

I don't actually agree with his premise, but I at least wanted HIS story to have a chance at making sense.

symbian simian

You know who those first year pilots are? They are our fellow pilots. And you are what I called you because your reasoning is no prospective pilot would be able to look beyond first year pay, but you have all the answers. Not about NK vs JB at all. Just about you being what you are.

Excargodog

I’ve always thought it amusing that the expression “fat chance” and “slim chance” mean pretty much the same thing. Take your pick.

So I’m going to respectfully expect you to do nothing to interfere with me exercising my rights as a dues paying union member to make my opinion known to OUR negotiating committee and executive council strategic planning, since we all get an opinion, not just those like you with delusions of adequacy trying to work up to delusions of grandeur.

I think the current UA TA fiasco is indicative of what can happen when arrogant self-centered know-it-alls cease listening to their union brothers. Wouldn’t want that to happen with the JCBA.

Roy Biggins

To a certain extent, that’s exactly what has been happening at JetBlue. Why we’re all so desperate for a change in Union leadership.

symbian simian

"You mistake the difference between what I desire as a final outcome, and the strategy I would employ to get there. Ultimately it is the COMPANY'S responsibility to staff the airline. It is the COMPANY'S responsibility to attract and retain pilots. Day 1 of section 6 the company would LOVE for you to fix THEIR attraction and retention problem by offering up a reduction in expectations for the other 50%+ of the pilot group to finance an increase for FO pay.. You would be their wet dream. In this environment where they can't staff the company, which is THEIR responsibility, and their business plans and promises to Wall Street don't work without staffing the company, you make it clear to them that you will give up NOTHING from your expectations for the other 50% of the pilot group. No robbing the captain to pay the FO on this one. And I guarantee you, that last, best final offer will magically have a competitive FO pay. That wasn't the case in the last cycle, predominantly for the ULCCs (which should tell you something about that business model), but it was for most of the rest of us, and WILL be the case this time."

This is you. #slipperyslope, #weareallpilots.

BluNK

Thanks, I've been here a few years longer than them and I'm a few years older which is what's making it a difficult decision.

symbian simian

Yeah, I'm almost 10 years in, and just over 10 left. Commute, so definitely would only would leave to not commute.
Going back to the bottom isn't easy.

Bluedriver

I think you guys are all very confused.

1. Where did I ever say I didn't expect the final OUTCOME to be a great 1st year pay rate?

2. Did I not ask you all to reference JB's 1st year pay rate (industry leading) if you want to know how JetBlue management and JetBlue pilots feel about first year pilots?

You guys only hear what you want to hear.

Excargodog

To begin with, you wandered blindly into an old argument. No one said that B6s first year pay was not industry standard, but NKs isn’t and never had been. Your first posting was nearly a word for word duplicate of what Mayo and a few others have used for years to justify a pi$$-poor industry low first year pay and an even more pathetic training pay that advocated holding newbies (and recruiting) hostage to extracting more pay for the non-newbies. And if you look at what the OUTCOME of that strategy has been at NK, it sure as H€|| has NOT been anything approaching industry standard. It doesn’t seem to have worked all that well at F9 either, although they at least had the option to raise first year pay and management brought it up to well, still industry lagging, but not industry lagging as much as NK.

In the meantime, in a company where (preCOVID) 15% of the people were newbies every year, they were being started out at a fraction of the pay they had when they left the regionals AND YEAH, WE COULD ALL DO THE MATH AND KNEW IT WOULD BE A BETTER DEAL IN THE LONG RUN, but most thought that wasn’t the way to treat our fellow pilots and that it undermined the unity a union should have.

So before you blunder into a furball on an issue where that has long been discussed, you might want to see the results of that attitude where you are discussing it, on anNK board. THIS is where that philosophy got us here:

Training Pay: $1750 per month
no insurance initially while training
First year pay currently up to $61 a month w 72 hr guarantee on reserve although preCOVID it was still in the $50s

total before taxes about $ 43,500 today.

So don’t blame the junior pilots here for believing that your philosophy of not “wasting” leverage on new pilots is as self evident to them as it seems to be to you, because their experience with the results of that philosophy is very different than yours. If you are too ignorant or arrogant to understand that, that’s on you, not on them.

Bluedriver

That's all fascinating.
So, included in your quoted posts of mine, nowhere did I ever say or imply that I didn't expect a great first-year pay. We simply disagree on how to achieve it. I hope you enjoyed your unnecessary tirade.