Spirit Airlines Training
12-27-2022, 09:12 AM
#571
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2019
Position: A320 For Your Health
Posts: 327
Idk why you would think it’s okay to have so few sims in training? We talk about being compensated like the legacies don’t want to be trained like the legacies?
I was riding the JS on a UAL flight and the FO had come from Spirit. He explained how the training was and the CA was in shock that we had so little sims to get typed. You can sit there and say that “we are an airline. We can only do so much hand-holding,” but it’s not about hand-holding as much as it is about having adequate training. If the only amount of sims you get is to pass a type ride then that’s a problem.
Again, the program was designed for 5000 hour pilots. CFIs are now sitting in indoc. Something has to give because this model of training is not sufficient with the CFIs in class. More sims should be incorporated.
Just my .02
P.S. To clarify, this isn’t about difficulty of training as it is about thoroughness of training. The program wasn’t hard. The ones that struggled didn’t have a 121 background, but they figured it out.
I was riding the JS on a UAL flight and the FO had come from Spirit. He explained how the training was and the CA was in shock that we had so little sims to get typed. You can sit there and say that “we are an airline. We can only do so much hand-holding,” but it’s not about hand-holding as much as it is about having adequate training. If the only amount of sims you get is to pass a type ride then that’s a problem.
Again, the program was designed for 5000 hour pilots. CFIs are now sitting in indoc. Something has to give because this model of training is not sufficient with the CFIs in class. More sims should be incorporated.
Just my .02
P.S. To clarify, this isn’t about difficulty of training as it is about thoroughness of training. The program wasn’t hard. The ones that struggled didn’t have a 121 background, but they figured it out.
For what it's worth, I've been pleased with the quality of the new FOs I've been working with, and they deserve an industry standard rate of pay for professional narrowbody aviators/aviatrix, all of whom have successfully completed our challenging training program.
12-27-2022, 02:47 PM
#572
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Posts: 612
Hey i agree with all that...But i will point out we used to have 3 ff sims and not a single FTD for use. Now we have several FTDs and 5 ff sims. The notion that there has not been significant training improvements is false, and those improvements come directly from the reality that new hires largely do not have prior airbus time and/or prior 121 pic. It is a fact Spirit no longer has a stack of 5,000 regional and cargo captains from which to select, and as a result they have made the program much easier. We're still a ULCC and training has a price tag, and Id rather that money go to captains and fo pay rates than more into training spending. Attract and retain experience with pay. I have little sympathy for people who can't cope with our current training program as it could be and once was much more challenging.
For what it's worth, I've been pleased with the quality of the new FOs I've been working with, and they deserve an industry standard rate of pay for professional narrowbody aviators/aviatrix, all of whom have successfully completed our challenging training program.
For what it's worth, I've been pleased with the quality of the new FOs I've been working with, and they deserve an industry standard rate of pay for professional narrowbody aviators/aviatrix, all of whom have successfully completed our challenging training program.
12-27-2022, 03:22 PM
#574
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,352
Hey i agree with all that...But i will point out we used to have 3 ff sims and not a single FTD for use. Now we have several FTDs and 5 ff sims. The notion that there has not been significant training improvements is false, and those improvements come directly from the reality that new hires largely do not have prior airbus time and/or prior 121 pic. It is a fact Spirit no longer has a stack of 5,000 regional and cargo captains from which to select, and as a result they have made the program much easier. We're still a ULCC and training has a price tag, and Id rather that money go to captains and fo pay rates than more into training spending. Attract and retain experience with pay. I have little sympathy for people who can't cope with our current training program as it could be and once was much more challenging.
For what it's worth, I've been pleased with the quality of the new FOs I've been working with, and they deserve an industry standard rate of pay for professional narrowbody aviators/aviatrix, all of whom have successfully completed our challenging training program.
For what it's worth, I've been pleased with the quality of the new FOs I've been working with, and they deserve an industry standard rate of pay for professional narrowbody aviators/aviatrix, all of whom have successfully completed our challenging training program.
I was also told that everyone hired after Jan 1 will be on the new footprint. 6 sims instead of 5 before their type. Looks like a lot of people had the same feedback about training.
You are completely right though. Training costs money and ULCC model is about keeping costs low. It’s the cost of doing business though. We have to adapt to do the growth and the pool of NHs and their experience.
12-27-2022, 03:23 PM
#575
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,279
12-28-2022, 06:42 AM
#576
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,927
Delta celebrates a new hire with a family dinner. Spirit brings in subway sandwiches if you’re lucky and maybe a ALPA dinner for yourself only.
12-28-2022, 09:46 AM
#577
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2021
Posts: 551
Nice kid though, at least he’ll look handsome in his double breasted when his family takes pictures at the dinner.
12-28-2022, 11:23 AM
#578
Line holder
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: On the bus,seat 0A
Posts: 3,332
Well good, maybe they can do a better job with the kid I just spent a holiday weekend rescheduling 4day with who spent the whole time playing on his phone or jabbering on about his Delta class date but didn’t know the APU fire test or setting the parking brake were part of the preliminary cockpit checks (“Oh, like for real? Dude my bad…”) or what an EDCT is. My favorite part was when his early morning proclamation about being able to bid for captain out of training was interrupted by a question on the radio from ice man and he turns to me and asked: “what’s type 4?”
Nice kid though, at least he’ll look handsome in his double breasted when his family takes pictures at the dinner.
Nice kid though, at least he’ll look handsome in his double breasted when his family takes pictures at the dinner.
12-28-2022, 01:00 PM
#579
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,927
Well good, maybe they can do a better job with the kid I just spent a holiday weekend rescheduling 4day with who spent the whole time playing on his phone or jabbering on about his Delta class date but didn’t know the APU fire test or setting the parking brake were part of the preliminary cockpit checks (“Oh, like for real? Dude my bad…”) or what an EDCT is. My favorite part was when his early morning proclamation about being able to bid for captain out of training was interrupted by a question on the radio from ice man and he turns to me and asked: “what’s type 4?”
Nice kid though, at least he’ll look handsome in his double breasted when his family takes pictures at the dinner.
Nice kid though, at least he’ll look handsome in his double breasted when his family takes pictures at the dinner.
"What's type 4"..haha
12-29-2022, 05:52 AM
#580
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 159
I've also had inexperienced guys give it their all. One, having been traumatized by the ORD 30 mile 250 kt downwind , just asked me at a "normal airport" "can I just fly this as an ILS to a visual, are they going to call my speeds for slowing and configuring, or can I fly it at my own pace?"
Freaking awesome question which usually requires a heck of lot of situational awareness of the other traffic with no right or wrong answer. Love those guys.
That's a problem with the green pages IMO, but it was a smart question from a new guy with his head in the game. I had another intern, flew everything regarding the Box better than me, new to the line that needed to fly coupled down to 200 ft, clicked everything off, and looked visibly scared landing at the brink of long.
Yet another guy, I'll just refer to him as "FO Dum Dum", literally stuffing his face with Cheetos, eyes glazed, staring out the side window at the nice view, climbing through FL200 while the left engine vibration was bouncing around in the amber completely unaware. I asked him to look up High Eng Vibration, you know, just in case. He could not find it.
Some, not all, issues are our fault on the line. People emulate what they see.
The new guys certainly are not being taught in training to bump the perf decent speeds to .80/340. I've explained to more than a few of them, those big rising puffy clouds on the arrival at FL180 are not meant for 340 kts, and when we get turned in early your profile based on Warp 10 is going to put you seriously high and fast, putting us both in trouble. When you have to click the A/P off, stick the V/S into the amber, and go full boards to make a restriction, nine out of ten times it's from our lack of planning ahead.
I guess energy management has to be learned not just taught.
Even when counseled during the decent brief, the new guys are so overwhelmed, that don't hear your words, or they are are just stubborn and arrogant and really want to land 1 minute early so we can wait for a gate.
I've gotten so exhausted at getting a "Decent Brief' after the decent instructions, when it's 10 minutes prior to decent I say" I have controls and ATC go ahead and give Initial, so they don't start selling credit cards when you need the PA", Then when they're done doing C x 9/5 + 32 to give them the perfect temperature (hint 75% don't speak English or care anyway), before giving control back I tell them "ready for your decent brief".
What the heck is wrong with making a fix one mile early and at speed? I haven't got an attaboy for a perfect fix crossing since IOE. That's a lie, I never got one then either.
It's not going to get easier, so learn your right seat flows guys, you need to watch what the new guys are doing all the time. The most confident ones particularly.
Freaking awesome question which usually requires a heck of lot of situational awareness of the other traffic with no right or wrong answer. Love those guys.
That's a problem with the green pages IMO, but it was a smart question from a new guy with his head in the game. I had another intern, flew everything regarding the Box better than me, new to the line that needed to fly coupled down to 200 ft, clicked everything off, and looked visibly scared landing at the brink of long.
Yet another guy, I'll just refer to him as "FO Dum Dum", literally stuffing his face with Cheetos, eyes glazed, staring out the side window at the nice view, climbing through FL200 while the left engine vibration was bouncing around in the amber completely unaware. I asked him to look up High Eng Vibration, you know, just in case. He could not find it.
Some, not all, issues are our fault on the line. People emulate what they see.
The new guys certainly are not being taught in training to bump the perf decent speeds to .80/340. I've explained to more than a few of them, those big rising puffy clouds on the arrival at FL180 are not meant for 340 kts, and when we get turned in early your profile based on Warp 10 is going to put you seriously high and fast, putting us both in trouble. When you have to click the A/P off, stick the V/S into the amber, and go full boards to make a restriction, nine out of ten times it's from our lack of planning ahead.
I guess energy management has to be learned not just taught.
Even when counseled during the decent brief, the new guys are so overwhelmed, that don't hear your words, or they are are just stubborn and arrogant and really want to land 1 minute early so we can wait for a gate.
I've gotten so exhausted at getting a "Decent Brief' after the decent instructions, when it's 10 minutes prior to decent I say" I have controls and ATC go ahead and give Initial, so they don't start selling credit cards when you need the PA", Then when they're done doing C x 9/5 + 32 to give them the perfect temperature (hint 75% don't speak English or care anyway), before giving control back I tell them "ready for your decent brief".
What the heck is wrong with making a fix one mile early and at speed? I haven't got an attaboy for a perfect fix crossing since IOE. That's a lie, I never got one then either.
It's not going to get easier, so learn your right seat flows guys, you need to watch what the new guys are doing all the time. The most confident ones particularly.
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