View Poll Results: Which one if both offered job ?
Envoy
88
59.86%
Spirit
59
40.14%
Voters: 147. You may not vote on this poll
Envoy or Spirit ?
11-20-2017, 01:11 PM
#51
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 409
Seriously??? What universe are you living in? This is all 100% false. The training department will bend over backwards to get new hires through. Including extra sims and lots of extra OE. You clearly haven’t the faintest idea what your talking about and are flaming out of anger towards the current labor environment. The level of experience from new hires is in the crapper. PERIOD. They struggle with this program which was implemented when the “low time” applicants had 6 or 7k hours. Your definition of a “knee jerk reaction” is so far from reality it’s unbelievable. The training department is suffering from the lack of qualified pilots due in large part to an incompetent DO and COO which leaves us with new hires who barely or don’t at all have ATPs and belong nowhere within 10k miles of an Airbus. Fact. I’ll agree one one point and one alone... if you don’t have a high level of experience, your leaving yourself VERY succeptable to a training failure. That has little to do with instructors and much more to do with crappy management and a lack of resources.
11-20-2017, 05:50 PM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,603
I certainly believe some of what he said could have happened.
I asked for more time and was told explicitly NO. I passed and nailed my ride but it all shouldn’t come together on the type. It should happen earlier and if the student isn’t ready they should be given more time. No one got more time back then. If you were on the fence they sent you to the type and if you busted they would retrain you then not before. Now you get to carry a pink slip around.
I think extra training is more common now because SOME of the candidates are so bad there is no way they can send them to the type.
I asked for more time and was told explicitly NO. I passed and nailed my ride but it all shouldn’t come together on the type. It should happen earlier and if the student isn’t ready they should be given more time. No one got more time back then. If you were on the fence they sent you to the type and if you busted they would retrain you then not before. Now you get to carry a pink slip around.
I think extra training is more common now because SOME of the candidates are so bad there is no way they can send them to the type.
Last edited by Qotsaautopilot; 11-20-2017 at 06:00 PM.
11-21-2017, 04:31 AM
#53
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2017
Position: Bus FO
Posts: 35
The Spirit training program is subpar at best. When I went through the program 7 months ago, we had low time, no experience guys teaching classroom and procedures. Their comments were all, "Well the guys on the line say they do it like this or like that." In fact, one of these low time instructors was teaching one of our CSI or whatever it was called, while being "observed" by a check airman. The check airman had to intervene so many times because my partner and I kept telling the instructor, that's not what the book says to do. Eventually the check airman finished the lesson. Instructor's reply was, "thats how we were told it was done on the line."
I know some of you here woke up with a magical 4000 hr experience overnight and can't remember when you were a heavy C172 Captain. But the short comings of the Spirit training program is the training departments fault. Most of the inexperience instructors are young guys taking an opportunity that was given and making the best of it. They are doing the best they can with the training and the tools they are given.
Yes, the candidates pool has seen a decay in experience. But to label a 2000 hr pilot as not capable is unjust.
As far as the training program. I found the program to be lacking in every since. I received my "link" with cpat and all the required reading material 2 weeks from ground school. No panels, no paper anything. I am not sure how many of you had 2 weeks off from current job, to sit at home for 8 hrs day to complete this cpat. But you know what I found more incredible than anything, the fact that there was NO requirement to complete the cpat before showing up in class. In fact, we had 2 guys in my class, that never finished the cpat.
Even when you show up for a home course at a 142 school, you must show with your computer based training completed and a test taken.
First week is basic indoc from 8-6 pm, 6 days a week. How much study time you have left over after leaving at 6 and waiting to take van to hotel, shower and dinner? Be realistic fellas.
Second week, 4 hrs of indoc 4 hrs in front of a paper trainer learning flows and the MCDU.
Then you move to CSIs where you are supposed to learn "SYSTEMS". Other than 2 of these sessions with the same instructor, check airman, we had a different instructor every day that was more interested in showing us how to fly than teach systems. The 2 little monitors on the side that showed the schematics, where turned on for 2 lessons.
Meanwhile, you were on your own to learn systems and limitations and prepare for the Oral with the Hatchet.
We got to the sim. 1 session was a rush with a check airman that wanted to show us so much in one lesson, that we were in awe. First time we experienced engine out stuff was on sim 3, then sim 4 and a check ride.
The emphasis was learning on when to do something and pass the checkride, not teaching you systems or why you are doing this or taking that action.
As far as the training environment, I found it all depends on the attitude of the candidate. There were a few guys that came in with a "teach me" attitude and lacked the discipline of a self study course. Guys that complained about the "system" or argued the the instructors were labeled whiners. Guys that, very politically, asked for another session and had the right attitude, were given the session. It all depended on "your" attitude. We all know this is a "cooperate and graduate" world.
I expect as the candidate pool continues to diminish, the struggles are going to continue to increase.
I know some of you here woke up with a magical 4000 hr experience overnight and can't remember when you were a heavy C172 Captain. But the short comings of the Spirit training program is the training departments fault. Most of the inexperience instructors are young guys taking an opportunity that was given and making the best of it. They are doing the best they can with the training and the tools they are given.
Yes, the candidates pool has seen a decay in experience. But to label a 2000 hr pilot as not capable is unjust.
As far as the training program. I found the program to be lacking in every since. I received my "link" with cpat and all the required reading material 2 weeks from ground school. No panels, no paper anything. I am not sure how many of you had 2 weeks off from current job, to sit at home for 8 hrs day to complete this cpat. But you know what I found more incredible than anything, the fact that there was NO requirement to complete the cpat before showing up in class. In fact, we had 2 guys in my class, that never finished the cpat.
Even when you show up for a home course at a 142 school, you must show with your computer based training completed and a test taken.
First week is basic indoc from 8-6 pm, 6 days a week. How much study time you have left over after leaving at 6 and waiting to take van to hotel, shower and dinner? Be realistic fellas.
Second week, 4 hrs of indoc 4 hrs in front of a paper trainer learning flows and the MCDU.
Then you move to CSIs where you are supposed to learn "SYSTEMS". Other than 2 of these sessions with the same instructor, check airman, we had a different instructor every day that was more interested in showing us how to fly than teach systems. The 2 little monitors on the side that showed the schematics, where turned on for 2 lessons.
Meanwhile, you were on your own to learn systems and limitations and prepare for the Oral with the Hatchet.
We got to the sim. 1 session was a rush with a check airman that wanted to show us so much in one lesson, that we were in awe. First time we experienced engine out stuff was on sim 3, then sim 4 and a check ride.
The emphasis was learning on when to do something and pass the checkride, not teaching you systems or why you are doing this or taking that action.
As far as the training environment, I found it all depends on the attitude of the candidate. There were a few guys that came in with a "teach me" attitude and lacked the discipline of a self study course. Guys that complained about the "system" or argued the the instructors were labeled whiners. Guys that, very politically, asked for another session and had the right attitude, were given the session. It all depended on "your" attitude. We all know this is a "cooperate and graduate" world.
I expect as the candidate pool continues to diminish, the struggles are going to continue to increase.
11-21-2017, 05:12 AM
#54
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 83
The Spirit training program is subpar at best. When I went through the program 7 months ago, we had low time, no experience guys teaching classroom and procedures. Their comments were all, "Well the guys on the line say they do it like this or like that." In fact, one of these low time instructors was teaching one of our CSI or whatever it was called, while being "observed" by a check airman. The check airman had to intervene so many times because my partner and I kept telling the instructor, that's not what the book says to do. Eventually the check airman finished the lesson. Instructor's reply was, "thats how we were told it was done on the line."
I know some of you here woke up with a magical 4000 hr experience overnight and can't remember when you were a heavy C172 Captain. But the short comings of the Spirit training program is the training departments fault. Most of the inexperience instructors are young guys taking an opportunity that was given and making the best of it. They are doing the best they can with the training and the tools they are given.
Yes, the candidates pool has seen a decay in experience. But to label a 2000 hr pilot as not capable is unjust.
As far as the training program. I found the program to be lacking in every since. I received my "link" with cpat and all the required reading material 2 weeks from ground school. No panels, no paper anything. I am not sure how many of you had 2 weeks off from current job, to sit at home for 8 hrs day to complete this cpat. But you know what I found more incredible than anything, the fact that there was NO requirement to complete the cpat before showing up in class. In fact, we had 2 guys in my class, that never finished the cpat.
Even when you show up for a home course at a 142 school, you must show with your computer based training completed and a test taken.
First week is basic indoc from 8-6 pm, 6 days a week. How much study time you have left over after leaving at 6 and waiting to take van to hotel, shower and dinner? Be realistic fellas.
Second week, 4 hrs of indoc 4 hrs in front of a paper trainer learning flows and the MCDU.
Then you move to CSIs where you are supposed to learn "SYSTEMS". Other than 2 of these sessions with the same instructor, check airman, we had a different instructor every day that was more interested in showing us how to fly than teach systems. The 2 little monitors on the side that showed the schematics, where turned on for 2 lessons.
Meanwhile, you were on your own to learn systems and limitations and prepare for the Oral with the Hatchet.
We got to the sim. 1 session was a rush with a check airman that wanted to show us so much in one lesson, that we were in awe. First time we experienced engine out stuff was on sim 3, then sim 4 and a check ride.
The emphasis was learning on when to do something and pass the checkride, not teaching you systems or why you are doing this or taking that action.
As far as the training environment, I found it all depends on the attitude of the candidate. There were a few guys that came in with a "teach me" attitude and lacked the discipline of a self study course. Guys that complained about the "system" or argued the the instructors were labeled whiners. Guys that, very politically, asked for another session and had the right attitude, were given the session. It all depended on "your" attitude. We all know this is a "cooperate and graduate" world.
I expect as the candidate pool continues to diminish, the struggles are going to continue to increase.
I know some of you here woke up with a magical 4000 hr experience overnight and can't remember when you were a heavy C172 Captain. But the short comings of the Spirit training program is the training departments fault. Most of the inexperience instructors are young guys taking an opportunity that was given and making the best of it. They are doing the best they can with the training and the tools they are given.
Yes, the candidates pool has seen a decay in experience. But to label a 2000 hr pilot as not capable is unjust.
As far as the training program. I found the program to be lacking in every since. I received my "link" with cpat and all the required reading material 2 weeks from ground school. No panels, no paper anything. I am not sure how many of you had 2 weeks off from current job, to sit at home for 8 hrs day to complete this cpat. But you know what I found more incredible than anything, the fact that there was NO requirement to complete the cpat before showing up in class. In fact, we had 2 guys in my class, that never finished the cpat.
Even when you show up for a home course at a 142 school, you must show with your computer based training completed and a test taken.
First week is basic indoc from 8-6 pm, 6 days a week. How much study time you have left over after leaving at 6 and waiting to take van to hotel, shower and dinner? Be realistic fellas.
Second week, 4 hrs of indoc 4 hrs in front of a paper trainer learning flows and the MCDU.
Then you move to CSIs where you are supposed to learn "SYSTEMS". Other than 2 of these sessions with the same instructor, check airman, we had a different instructor every day that was more interested in showing us how to fly than teach systems. The 2 little monitors on the side that showed the schematics, where turned on for 2 lessons.
Meanwhile, you were on your own to learn systems and limitations and prepare for the Oral with the Hatchet.
We got to the sim. 1 session was a rush with a check airman that wanted to show us so much in one lesson, that we were in awe. First time we experienced engine out stuff was on sim 3, then sim 4 and a check ride.
The emphasis was learning on when to do something and pass the checkride, not teaching you systems or why you are doing this or taking that action.
As far as the training environment, I found it all depends on the attitude of the candidate. There were a few guys that came in with a "teach me" attitude and lacked the discipline of a self study course. Guys that complained about the "system" or argued the the instructors were labeled whiners. Guys that, very politically, asked for another session and had the right attitude, were given the session. It all depended on "your" attitude. We all know this is a "cooperate and graduate" world.
I expect as the candidate pool continues to diminish, the struggles are going to continue to increase.
Now, that experience isn’t there and the training program can’t rely on students to pull themselves through. So it is very accurate to say that a typical 2000 hour pilot just isn’t capable. They shouldn’t take that personal, but take it as a warning that this is what they are getting themselves into.
I say, oh well. Want to fly an Airbus at Spirit for $38, this is you rolling the dice
11-21-2017, 06:07 AM
#55
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2017
Position: Bus FO
Posts: 35
Now, that experience isn’t there and the training program can’t rely on students to pull themselves through. So it is very accurate to say that a typical 2000 hour pilot just isn’t capable. They shouldn’t take that personal, but take it as a warning that this is what they are getting themselves into.
I say, oh well. Want to fly an Airbus at Spirit for $38, this is you rolling the dice
I don't care how much experience you bring in. If you have been a Boeing guy all your life and come to Spirit to learn the bus, you should expect a good training program. While experience in decision making, judgement and situational awareness is golden, it does nothing when it comes to teaching a new philosophy, systems.
A typical 2000 guy is just as capable as a 500 hr guy given the right tools and training. I've also seen 10,000 Captains with all the experience in the world, be crappy pilots.
11-21-2017, 06:17 AM
#56
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2017
Posts: 83
I don't care how much experience you bring in. If you have been a Boeing guy all your life and come to Spirit to learn the bus, you should expect a good training program. While experience in decision making, judgement and situational awareness is golden, it does nothing when it comes to teaching a new philosophy, systems.
A typical 2000 guy is just as capable as a 500 hr guy given the right tools and training. I've also seen 10,000 Captains with all the experience in the world, be crappy pilots.
A typical 2000 guy is just as capable as a 500 hr guy given the right tools and training. I've also seen 10,000 Captains with all the experience in the world, be crappy pilots.
All three of those things are not reality. To say you dont care how much experience someone comes in with says all I need to hear regarding your value on experience. You have exceptions on both points but experience is one of best tools any pilot has in their bag. To discredit it as not important to the success of a training program explains why so may guys are having trouble and failing, they dont have the experience to realize what they are up against.
So everyone can go on and on about how the training program is this, that and should be this...but it is what it has always been. In the words of Coach Green, "They were who we thought they were," and this training program "is what we know it is."
Guys never failed in any large numbers before, they do now. They actually have more hand holding now, these are facts. The largest difference is the experience. Now guys take offense to the obvious that the experience is the difference.
"The training needs to be better to get guys through."
No, first the pay needs to be better to attract quality pilots again. We do not attract the same level of pilot we did and its because of pay and the fact we aren't the only show hiring.
Let the failure number rise and rise, doesn't bother me. Every pilot that doesnt make it only strengthens our case for a new contract and higher wages, while showing the Finnish Fool that you cant take any pilot and push them through his condensed training program.
11-21-2017, 09:11 AM
#57
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 31
The Spirit training program is subpar at best. When I went through the program 7 months ago, we had low time, no experience guys teaching classroom and procedures. Their comments were all, "Well the guys on the line say they do it like this or like that." In fact, one of these low time instructors was teaching one of our CSI or whatever it was called, while being "observed" by a check airman. The check airman had to intervene so many times because my partner and I kept telling the instructor, that's not what the book says to do. Eventually the check airman finished the lesson. Instructor's reply was, "thats how we were told it was done on the line."
I know some of you here woke up with a magical 4000 hr experience overnight and can't remember when you were a heavy C172 Captain. But the short comings of the Spirit training program is the training departments fault. Most of the inexperience instructors are young guys taking an opportunity that was given and making the best of it. They are doing the best they can with the training and the tools they are given.
Yes, the candidates pool has seen a decay in experience. But to label a 2000 hr pilot as not capable is unjust.
As far as the training program. I found the program to be lacking in every since. I received my "link" with cpat and all the required reading material 2 weeks from ground school. No panels, no paper anything. I am not sure how many of you had 2 weeks off from current job, to sit at home for 8 hrs day to complete this cpat. But you know what I found more incredible than anything, the fact that there was NO requirement to complete the cpat before showing up in class. In fact, we had 2 guys in my class, that never finished the cpat.
Even when you show up for a home course at a 142 school, you must show with your computer based training completed and a test taken.
First week is basic indoc from 8-6 pm, 6 days a week. How much study time you have left over after leaving at 6 and waiting to take van to hotel, shower and dinner? Be realistic fellas.
Second week, 4 hrs of indoc 4 hrs in front of a paper trainer learning flows and the MCDU.
Then you move to CSIs where you are supposed to learn "SYSTEMS". Other than 2 of these sessions with the same instructor, check airman, we had a different instructor every day that was more interested in showing us how to fly than teach systems. The 2 little monitors on the side that showed the schematics, where turned on for 2 lessons.
Meanwhile, you were on your own to learn systems and limitations and prepare for the Oral with the Hatchet.
We got to the sim. 1 session was a rush with a check airman that wanted to show us so much in one lesson, that we were in awe. First time we experienced engine out stuff was on sim 3, then sim 4 and a check ride.
The emphasis was learning on when to do something and pass the checkride, not teaching you systems or why you are doing this or taking that action.
As far as the training environment, I found it all depends on the attitude of the candidate. There were a few guys that came in with a "teach me" attitude and lacked the discipline of a self study course. Guys that complained about the "system" or argued the the instructors were labeled whiners. Guys that, very politically, asked for another session and had the right attitude, were given the session. It all depended on "your" attitude. We all know this is a "cooperate and graduate" world.
I expect as the candidate pool continues to diminish, the struggles are going to continue to increase.
I know some of you here woke up with a magical 4000 hr experience overnight and can't remember when you were a heavy C172 Captain. But the short comings of the Spirit training program is the training departments fault. Most of the inexperience instructors are young guys taking an opportunity that was given and making the best of it. They are doing the best they can with the training and the tools they are given.
Yes, the candidates pool has seen a decay in experience. But to label a 2000 hr pilot as not capable is unjust.
As far as the training program. I found the program to be lacking in every since. I received my "link" with cpat and all the required reading material 2 weeks from ground school. No panels, no paper anything. I am not sure how many of you had 2 weeks off from current job, to sit at home for 8 hrs day to complete this cpat. But you know what I found more incredible than anything, the fact that there was NO requirement to complete the cpat before showing up in class. In fact, we had 2 guys in my class, that never finished the cpat.
Even when you show up for a home course at a 142 school, you must show with your computer based training completed and a test taken.
First week is basic indoc from 8-6 pm, 6 days a week. How much study time you have left over after leaving at 6 and waiting to take van to hotel, shower and dinner? Be realistic fellas.
Second week, 4 hrs of indoc 4 hrs in front of a paper trainer learning flows and the MCDU.
Then you move to CSIs where you are supposed to learn "SYSTEMS". Other than 2 of these sessions with the same instructor, check airman, we had a different instructor every day that was more interested in showing us how to fly than teach systems. The 2 little monitors on the side that showed the schematics, where turned on for 2 lessons.
Meanwhile, you were on your own to learn systems and limitations and prepare for the Oral with the Hatchet.
We got to the sim. 1 session was a rush with a check airman that wanted to show us so much in one lesson, that we were in awe. First time we experienced engine out stuff was on sim 3, then sim 4 and a check ride.
The emphasis was learning on when to do something and pass the checkride, not teaching you systems or why you are doing this or taking that action.
As far as the training environment, I found it all depends on the attitude of the candidate. There were a few guys that came in with a "teach me" attitude and lacked the discipline of a self study course. Guys that complained about the "system" or argued the the instructors were labeled whiners. Guys that, very politically, asked for another session and had the right attitude, were given the session. It all depended on "your" attitude. We all know this is a "cooperate and graduate" world.
I expect as the candidate pool continues to diminish, the struggles are going to continue to increase.
11-23-2017, 10:08 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Position: Discount Pilot
Posts: 183
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