Union response
05-11-2017, 11:31 AM
#81
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 119
I'm not advocating anything, but will pass on what I have always done and have seen others do. Anytime you have a write up, take a picture of the item or the ecam as well as the log entry. Enough said.
05-11-2017, 12:20 PM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,823
Bingo. I've done this in the past and it was HUGELY beneficial when my union rep and I met with the FAA to discuss why the company was harassing me and others for write-ups. Document, document, document.
05-12-2017, 08:37 AM
#83
On Reserve
Joined APC: May 2017
Position: Chief Pilot
Posts: 10
To all the "furious" Spirit pilots out there who think the judge and the company want you to fly "broken airplanes" or "fly sick or fatigued":
I think what the lawsuit and court order was really about was the illegal job action set in motion by a small group of your pilots. before you start denying this blindly allow me to explain. It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that one or more Spirit crew members have created a public list of names and contact information identifying everyone who has picked up open time and "helped" the company?! Is this really true!? (this is the illegal job action to which I was referring)
Now I am sure you all realize this is considered an illegal job action..if this really did happen then I am also sure you all are aware that anyone who used that information to call and harass another crew member is now a participant in that same illegal job action and is in direct violation of the railway labor act and federal law.
It is getting old reading posts from pilot after pilot who thinks they did nothing wrong and is just another victim of their companies accusations when in fact it was clearly the company who was the victim in this case.
Here are the facts:
Your pilots intentionally slowed down the airline, got caught, got a lawsuit, and are now saying you did nothing wrong..
My point is simple: Please guys, please, for the sake of all pilots everywhere, STOP MAKING US ALL LOOK BAD!
I think what the lawsuit and court order was really about was the illegal job action set in motion by a small group of your pilots. before you start denying this blindly allow me to explain. It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that one or more Spirit crew members have created a public list of names and contact information identifying everyone who has picked up open time and "helped" the company?! Is this really true!? (this is the illegal job action to which I was referring)
Now I am sure you all realize this is considered an illegal job action..if this really did happen then I am also sure you all are aware that anyone who used that information to call and harass another crew member is now a participant in that same illegal job action and is in direct violation of the railway labor act and federal law.
It is getting old reading posts from pilot after pilot who thinks they did nothing wrong and is just another victim of their companies accusations when in fact it was clearly the company who was the victim in this case.
Here are the facts:
Your pilots intentionally slowed down the airline, got caught, got a lawsuit, and are now saying you did nothing wrong..
My point is simple: Please guys, please, for the sake of all pilots everywhere, STOP MAKING US ALL LOOK BAD!
05-12-2017, 08:55 AM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,603
To all the "furious" Spirit pilots out there who think the judge and the company want you to fly "broken airplanes" or "fly sick or fatigued":
I think what the lawsuit and court order was really about was the illegal job action set in motion by a small group of your pilots. before you start denying this blindly allow me to explain. It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that one or more Spirit crew members have created a public list of names and contact information identifying everyone who has picked up open time and "helped" the company?! Is this really true!? (this is the illegal job action to which I was referring)
Now I am sure you all realize this is considered an illegal job action..if this really did happen then I am also sure you all are aware that anyone who used that information to call and harass another crew member is now a participant in that same illegal job action and is in direct violation of the railway labor act and federal law.
It is getting old reading posts from pilot after pilot who thinks they did nothing wrong and is just another victim of their companies accusations when in fact it was clearly the company who was the victim in this case.
Here are the facts:
Your pilots intentionally slowed down the airline, got caught, got a lawsuit, and are now saying you did nothing wrong..
My point is simple: Please guys, please, for the sake of all pilots everywhere, STOP MAKING US ALL LOOK BAD!
I think what the lawsuit and court order was really about was the illegal job action set in motion by a small group of your pilots. before you start denying this blindly allow me to explain. It is my understanding (correct me if I am wrong) that one or more Spirit crew members have created a public list of names and contact information identifying everyone who has picked up open time and "helped" the company?! Is this really true!? (this is the illegal job action to which I was referring)
Now I am sure you all realize this is considered an illegal job action..if this really did happen then I am also sure you all are aware that anyone who used that information to call and harass another crew member is now a participant in that same illegal job action and is in direct violation of the railway labor act and federal law.
It is getting old reading posts from pilot after pilot who thinks they did nothing wrong and is just another victim of their companies accusations when in fact it was clearly the company who was the victim in this case.
Here are the facts:
Your pilots intentionally slowed down the airline, got caught, got a lawsuit, and are now saying you did nothing wrong..
My point is simple: Please guys, please, for the sake of all pilots everywhere, STOP MAKING US ALL LOOK BAD!
05-12-2017, 09:31 AM
#85
On Reserve
Joined APC: May 2017
Position: Chief Pilot
Posts: 10
If theyre happy that's fine. We do mostly overnight trips and not day trips. If Allegiant ever decided to go that route with the current contract the pilots will see earnings drop and qol vanish in an instant. Also, that $300k is only possible for the top longevities also working well above an industry standard amount of block per month. I don't want my industry standard compensation predicated on working 90+hrs of block per month when the industry is mid to upper 70s. Either way retirement is subpar. The difference between 5+5 and a straight 16% is millions over a career especially at below industry standard rates. The united contract comparison release about a month ago proves this beautifully.
Bottom line is that Allegiant has better "pay" than spirit right now but there is no way I'd sign that same deal given the current industry and the 2019 negotiation timeline for the big 4. Lest we forget Jetblue and VA/AK negotiations happening at this time which I fully expect to be industry standard deals.
If we don't get it in this cycle we never will and if we don't recruitment is toast and the spirit growth plan we just be words on a paper. An industry standard contract is a must for us and them they just haven't come to realize it yet.
Bottom line is that Allegiant has better "pay" than spirit right now but there is no way I'd sign that same deal given the current industry and the 2019 negotiation timeline for the big 4. Lest we forget Jetblue and VA/AK negotiations happening at this time which I fully expect to be industry standard deals.
If we don't get it in this cycle we never will and if we don't recruitment is toast and the spirit growth plan we just be words on a paper. An industry standard contract is a must for us and them they just haven't come to realize it yet.
I have been around this industry for a lot of years. I have seen both sides of the table. As long as a pilot group is harassing its own members and making threats the company will never in a million years accept industry standard as the way to go trust me on this..they will just sit back and watch while the pilot group digs their own grave..
if you want the company to accept the pay you want(ie industry standard or even industry leading) then you will have to show them that you deserve it. this could be in many forms..this could mean proving to your company you have a vested interest in the future success of the company by offering something in return for the compensation you so desperately want like PBS for example (huge savings to the company). This is how you negotiate. It is unreasonable to expect a company to, for the 1st time ever in its history, give industry standard anything solely because "it has been 8 years without it so we deserve it".
I can promise you that if both sides are negotiating truly in good faith then you will get the best contract you have ever had and all the other problems will resolve on their own I have seen it a hundred times. This is what we are really all after isnt it? we have to protect this profession for the future but we have to be smart about it.
05-12-2017, 09:44 AM
#86
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,603
Problem is the company isn't offing PBS and industry standard pay, retirement, retro, and scope. They are offering pbs and Allegiant pay. It's a joke.
Btw this group has gone above and beyond many times for this company to overcome their operational atrocities and have been spat on for doing so. They know we can be their greatest ally they just choose not to want to pay for that service
Btw this group has gone above and beyond many times for this company to overcome their operational atrocities and have been spat on for doing so. They know we can be their greatest ally they just choose not to want to pay for that service
05-12-2017, 10:03 AM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: Gear slinger
Posts: 2,973
If a company isn't paying its pilots enough for them to willingly man their flights beyond what they're scheduled for, they either need to 1) make it more worth their pilots to do so in terms of pay and benefits or 2) need to hire more pilots... both of which cost money.
A company like Spirit posting large profits can't cry poor mouth and seek concessions from its pilot group during negotiations in a pilot deficit when other companies are freely giving their employees pay raises and increases in profit sharing and others are paying upto 300% premium pay to entice their folks to pickup flights on their off time.
It's very simple, if you pay they will come... if you don't, they won't, and you'll have to close up shop...
A company like Spirit posting large profits can't cry poor mouth and seek concessions from its pilot group during negotiations in a pilot deficit when other companies are freely giving their employees pay raises and increases in profit sharing and others are paying upto 300% premium pay to entice their folks to pickup flights on their off time.
It's very simple, if you pay they will come... if you don't, they won't, and you'll have to close up shop...
05-12-2017, 10:50 AM
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2011
Posts: 374
Swa pilot here. Six months before our new contract was signed we saw a dramatic shift in managements tactics and attempts to communicate directly with us. These are things that are not necessary to come to a fair and equitable agreement in line with market rates. When you start seeing things like low post count statements from obvious management personnel and lawsuits, you should know that you've already won.
It's only a matter of time before management realizes this. They have run out of airspeed & altitude & now ideas. The lawsuit is proof of this. The process they are going through is very much like a death/grieving process. Shock, denial, sadness, and finally acceptance are all part of the realization that the fair market rate for pilot wages has changed dramatically in your favor. IMO your CEO is in the shock/denial phase. Blaming cancellations solely on the pilots will only work for a short while, probably not through the summer, definitely not forever.
Take a deep breath, relax, and be patient. Battling the forces of supply and demand is like swimming against the current. It doesn't matter how hard or fast you paddle, you're going downstream eventually. you guys just need to hang on and let the market do the work for you.
It's only a matter of time before management realizes this. They have run out of airspeed & altitude & now ideas. The lawsuit is proof of this. The process they are going through is very much like a death/grieving process. Shock, denial, sadness, and finally acceptance are all part of the realization that the fair market rate for pilot wages has changed dramatically in your favor. IMO your CEO is in the shock/denial phase. Blaming cancellations solely on the pilots will only work for a short while, probably not through the summer, definitely not forever.
Take a deep breath, relax, and be patient. Battling the forces of supply and demand is like swimming against the current. It doesn't matter how hard or fast you paddle, you're going downstream eventually. you guys just need to hang on and let the market do the work for you.
05-12-2017, 10:56 AM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,603
Swa pilot here. Six months before our new contract was signed we saw a dramatic shift in managements tactics and attempts to communicate directly with us. These are things that are not necessary to come to a fair and equitable agreement in line with market rates. When you start seeing things like low post count statements from obvious management personnel and lawsuits, you should know that you've already won.
It's only a matter of time before management realizes this. They have run out of airspeed & altitude & now ideas. The lawsuit is proof of this. The process they are going through is very much like a death/grieving process. Shock, denial, sadness, and finally acceptance are all part of the realization that the fair market rate for pilot wages has changed dramatically in your favor. IMO your CEO is in the shock/denial phase. Blaming cancellations solely on the pilots will only work for a short while, probably not through the summer, definitely not forever.
Take a deep breath, relax, and be patient. Battling the forces of supply and demand is like swimming against the current. It doesn't matter how hard or fast you paddle, you're going downstream eventually. you guys just need to hang on and let the market do the work for you.
It's only a matter of time before management realizes this. They have run out of airspeed & altitude & now ideas. The lawsuit is proof of this. The process they are going through is very much like a death/grieving process. Shock, denial, sadness, and finally acceptance are all part of the realization that the fair market rate for pilot wages has changed dramatically in your favor. IMO your CEO is in the shock/denial phase. Blaming cancellations solely on the pilots will only work for a short while, probably not through the summer, definitely not forever.
Take a deep breath, relax, and be patient. Battling the forces of supply and demand is like swimming against the current. It doesn't matter how hard or fast you paddle, you're going downstream eventually. you guys just need to hang on and let the market do the work for you.
05-12-2017, 11:49 AM
#90
Banned
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,445
I agree with most all of this..especially the last sentence. You are 100% correct..they just have not accepted yet that industry standard is a must..to be honest I am not sure they will accept it before it is too late.
I have been around this industry for a lot of years. I have seen both sides of the table. As long as a pilot group is harassing its own members and making threats the company will never in a million years accept industry standard as the way to go trust me on this..they will just sit back and watch while the pilot group digs their own grave..
if you want the company to accept the pay you want(ie industry standard or even industry leading) then you will have to show them that you deserve it. this could be in many forms..this could mean proving to your company you have a vested interest in the future success of the company by offering something in return for the compensation you so desperately want like PBS for example (huge savings to the company). This is how you negotiate. It is unreasonable to expect a company to, for the 1st time ever in its history, give industry standard anything solely because "it has been 8 years without it so we deserve it".
I can promise you that if both sides are negotiating truly in good faith then you will get the best contract you have ever had and all the other problems will resolve on their own I have seen it a hundred times. This is what we are really all after isnt it? we have to protect this profession for the future but we have to be smart about it.
I have been around this industry for a lot of years. I have seen both sides of the table. As long as a pilot group is harassing its own members and making threats the company will never in a million years accept industry standard as the way to go trust me on this..they will just sit back and watch while the pilot group digs their own grave..
if you want the company to accept the pay you want(ie industry standard or even industry leading) then you will have to show them that you deserve it. this could be in many forms..this could mean proving to your company you have a vested interest in the future success of the company by offering something in return for the compensation you so desperately want like PBS for example (huge savings to the company). This is how you negotiate. It is unreasonable to expect a company to, for the 1st time ever in its history, give industry standard anything solely because "it has been 8 years without it so we deserve it".
I can promise you that if both sides are negotiating truly in good faith then you will get the best contract you have ever had and all the other problems will resolve on their own I have seen it a hundred times. This is what we are really all after isnt it? we have to protect this profession for the future but we have to be smart about it.
Sat on both sides of the table huh? I would NEVER sit on the side representing corporate greed. How does it feel to try to lower pay for working people so Wall Street and the Board can get fatter bonuses? I'd need therapy after that.
I'm with B6 so you can keep me out of your lawsuit.
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