Union response
05-14-2017, 12:29 PM
#121
On Reserve
Joined APC: May 2017
Position: Chief Pilot
Posts: 10
27 years in aviation, 6 companies plus Air Force (not USAF). One thing I have always done is go the extra mile for the company, I have always been in very good standing with management in any previous company, so don't assume my attitude. Also I just stated I have little interest in your opinion based on your belief Spirit management could be capable of negotiating in good faith. (believe me, if you were here you would know better), so don't assume my intent to put anyone down.
I have helped this company out many times, I have not attacked anyone online or in person for flying on their days off.
If you want to have an adult conversation with me please go ahead and respond to the things I complained about....
And while on the subject, NO, both do not share equal responsibility for the mess Spirit is on. I have read the whole complaint and correct me if I am wrong but nowhere did it actually give a number by which open flying pick-up had gone down, it just stated that pilots used to pick up 4% and now there is a lot of open time not getting picked up. The thing is, at the start of open time there was almost twice as many trips as the month before and reserve coverage was negative for most of the first week. That goes way above my responsibility to solve.
Believe it or not I enjoy my job, and because I feel a responsibility for my passengers I still work hard to get the job done. I just wish the people "running" this company would spend more effort in making this a good company and less time telling everyone (pilots, FA's, ground crew) we don't deserve industry average while they make more than their peers.
I have helped this company out many times, I have not attacked anyone online or in person for flying on their days off.
If you want to have an adult conversation with me please go ahead and respond to the things I complained about....
And while on the subject, NO, both do not share equal responsibility for the mess Spirit is on. I have read the whole complaint and correct me if I am wrong but nowhere did it actually give a number by which open flying pick-up had gone down, it just stated that pilots used to pick up 4% and now there is a lot of open time not getting picked up. The thing is, at the start of open time there was almost twice as many trips as the month before and reserve coverage was negative for most of the first week. That goes way above my responsibility to solve.
Believe it or not I enjoy my job, and because I feel a responsibility for my passengers I still work hard to get the job done. I just wish the people "running" this company would spend more effort in making this a good company and less time telling everyone (pilots, FA's, ground crew) we don't deserve industry average while they make more than their peers.
To be fair yes I do believe they are capable of negotiating in good faith..I in no way said they are currently..I truly believe based on past experience I have negotiating contracts that neither side is currently negotiating in good faith..the point I was trying to make was that one side will have to break the current cycle and build trust in order for good faith negotiations to take place and a fair agreement to be reached. Based on what I have seen here there is a shared responsibility of both sides to ensure this doesn't continue..you have already seen the result in 2010 and I can only assume you don't want to end up in the same position again.
As for the open time..this is something that I agree with you 100%. The company has failed miserably by allowing this practice to take place. I worked for a similar company once upon a time and we allowed something similar to this and it created a huge problem with open time. Unfortunately that company went under not long after so the full potential of the problem was never realized. I have been checking in on this from time to time over the last year or so and have also seen the trends as you suggest. There is not a person in this business that didn't see this problem coming from 10 miles away and I was very curious to see how the company was going to address it. Unfortunately a portion of the Spirit pilot group decided intimidating their peers was a good idea and got a decent amount of the pilot group to participate..this gave the company exactly the right weapon to fight back with(also a poor decision in my opinion)..you seem like you genuinely didn't have a part in and that was a very smart decision but the reality is this. When the group who set this into motion did what they did it robbed the entire group of hundreds of thousands of dollars maybe more in potential value in whatever agreement that might have been reached. It also delayed the process an unknown amount of time. Damage control should be the primary goal until negotiations resume and once they do then you need to put it behind you as a group and ensure you are doing everything you can as individuals to do the right thing so if the company continues to make mistakes and negotiate in bad faith they will not have anyone to point the finger at but themselves
05-14-2017, 12:32 PM
#122
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 195
I would love to grab a beer sometime and of course it will be my treat..I would love to hear your opinions on how to improve this industry..if you are ever in the south Florida area you name the place I'll be there. That is how people in my position make things better..by listening to YOU. Everyone is so quick to criticize the decisions made and as leaders we are not here to make friends we are here to run a successful and profitable business so you and your colleagues can provide for and support you family. With that objective in mind there are a lot of good companies out there that have created a very positive work environment for a lot of people such as yourself..so when someone like Bob comes into a company like Spirit he has to figure out how to improve your overall performance as a company and since nobody likes change he is met with hostility and skepticism but let's look at the numbers..customer complaints are down considerably, OTP is trending upwards..these are two metrics that are essential to profitability and reliability..it may not seem like it right now it may seem hopeless but there is light at the end of the tunnel..you will get a new agreement but you can't expect to get an industry leading deal overnight and give up nothing in return. I genuinely hope I'm wrong but decades of experience tell me I'm not.
As for my low post count..even you had 8 posts at one time..maybe you will change your opinion one day when my post count reaches whatever is considered an acceptable level here..but in the meantime I challenge you to keep an open mind when someone with relevant experience goes advice..I don't put you down for sharing your opinion so try to give me the same courtesy.
As for my low post count..even you had 8 posts at one time..maybe you will change your opinion one day when my post count reaches whatever is considered an acceptable level here..but in the meantime I challenge you to keep an open mind when someone with relevant experience goes advice..I don't put you down for sharing your opinion so try to give me the same courtesy.
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05-14-2017, 01:43 PM
#123
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 491
I would love to grab a beer sometime and of course it will be my treat..I would love to hear your opinions on how to improve this industry..if you are ever in the south Florida area you name the place I'll be there. That is how people in my position make things better..by listening to YOU. Everyone is so quick to criticize the decisions made and as leaders we are not here to make friends we are here to run a successful and profitable business so you and your colleagues can provide for and support you family. With that objective in mind there are a lot of good companies out there that have created a very positive work environment for a lot of people such as yourself..so when someone like Bob comes into a company like Spirit he has to figure out how to improve your overall performance as a company and since nobody likes change he is met with hostility and skepticism but let's look at the numbers..customer complaints are down considerably, OTP is trending upwards..these are two metrics that are essential to profitability and reliability..it may not seem like it right now it may seem hopeless but there is light at the end of the tunnel..you will get a new agreement but you can't expect to get an industry leading deal overnight and give up nothing in return. I genuinely hope I'm wrong but decades of experience tell me I'm not.
As for my low post count..even you had 8 posts at one time..maybe you will change your opinion one day when my post count reaches whatever is considered an acceptable level here..but in the meantime I challenge you to keep an open mind when someone with relevant experience goes advice..I don't put you down for sharing your opinion so try to give me the same courtesy.
As for my low post count..even you had 8 posts at one time..maybe you will change your opinion one day when my post count reaches whatever is considered an acceptable level here..but in the meantime I challenge you to keep an open mind when someone with relevant experience goes advice..I don't put you down for sharing your opinion so try to give me the same courtesy.
[Please forgive me the simplistic analogy physics majors--I’m a Finance guy]
In the world of a pilot, Work is defined by the sum total of our work rules. For example, Trip Rigs, Day Rigs, Min Days Off, Vacation Rules, Reserve call-out Rules, etc. Pay consists of an hourly rate and associated benefits--sick time, vacation time, health insurance, retirement, etc.
What I’ve seen (and yes, I’ve been on a negotiating committee for a 121 carrier) is that management frequently pulls its favorite work rules from a variety of different contracts and calls this “Industry Standard” when in reality, it’s the worst parts from 5 different contracts. Now, each of these contracts might wind up being truly being industry standard, but that’s because they each have the benefit of other provisions which compensate for one small variable that’s below industry standard. A particular carrier might have Pay (in the universal sense of the term) that’s slightly higher to compensate for slightly lower than standard Work provisions. 83%Work x 120%Pay = Industry Average.
It’s my belief that with Spirit and other other airlines similarly situated (Frontier), we have maybe 80% of Industry Average on the Work variable and about 60% on the Pay variable. Do the math and the result is underwhelming.
When you suggest that if we want Industry Standard, we should expect to give up something in terms of Work rules, you’re not acknowledging the whole picture. To be blunt, you’re ignorant or you think we’re ignorant. 70% Industry Average on the Work variable multiplied by 90% on the Pay variable does NOT equate to Industry Average.
I don’t believe management folks such as yourself are really ignorant. Unfortunately, that leaves me with the conclusion that you think you’re smarter than your workforce and our representatives. I find your attitude and presumptions offensive and antagonistic.
05-14-2017, 02:22 PM
#124
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 195
An “Industry Standard” contract boils down to 2 main things: How much Work is performed multiplied by Pay. It’s almost like a physics problem: Force x Mass = Energy. Work x Pay = Industry Standard.
[Please forgive me the simplistic analogy physics majors--I’m a Finance guy]
In the world of a pilot, Work is defined by the sum total of our work rules. For example, Trip Rigs, Day Rigs, Min Days Off, Vacation Rules, Reserve call-out Rules, etc. Pay consists of an hourly rate and associated benefits--sick time, vacation time, health insurance, retirement, etc.
What I’ve seen (and yes, I’ve been on a negotiating committee for a 121 carrier) is that management frequently pulls its favorite work rules from a variety of different contracts and calls this “Industry Standard” when in reality, it’s the worst parts from 5 different contracts. Now, each of these contracts might wind up being truly being industry standard, but that’s because they each have the benefit of other provisions which compensate for one small variable that’s below industry standard. A particular carrier might have Pay (in the universal sense of the term) that’s slightly higher to compensate for slightly lower than standard Work provisions. 83%Work x 120%Pay = Industry Average.
It’s my belief that with Spirit and other other airlines similarly situated (Frontier), we have maybe 80% of Industry Average on the Work variable and about 60% on the Pay variable. Do the math and the result is underwhelming.
When you suggest that if we want Industry Standard, we should expect to give up something in terms of Work rules, you’re not acknowledging the whole picture. To be blunt, you’re ignorant or you think we’re ignorant. 70% Industry Average on the Work variable multiplied by 90% on the Pay variable does NOT equate to Industry Average.
I don’t believe management folks such as yourself are really ignorant. Unfortunately, that leaves me with the conclusion that you think you’re smarter than your workforce and our representatives. I find your attitude and presumptions offensive and antagonistic.
[Please forgive me the simplistic analogy physics majors--I’m a Finance guy]
In the world of a pilot, Work is defined by the sum total of our work rules. For example, Trip Rigs, Day Rigs, Min Days Off, Vacation Rules, Reserve call-out Rules, etc. Pay consists of an hourly rate and associated benefits--sick time, vacation time, health insurance, retirement, etc.
What I’ve seen (and yes, I’ve been on a negotiating committee for a 121 carrier) is that management frequently pulls its favorite work rules from a variety of different contracts and calls this “Industry Standard” when in reality, it’s the worst parts from 5 different contracts. Now, each of these contracts might wind up being truly being industry standard, but that’s because they each have the benefit of other provisions which compensate for one small variable that’s below industry standard. A particular carrier might have Pay (in the universal sense of the term) that’s slightly higher to compensate for slightly lower than standard Work provisions. 83%Work x 120%Pay = Industry Average.
It’s my belief that with Spirit and other other airlines similarly situated (Frontier), we have maybe 80% of Industry Average on the Work variable and about 60% on the Pay variable. Do the math and the result is underwhelming.
When you suggest that if we want Industry Standard, we should expect to give up something in terms of Work rules, you’re not acknowledging the whole picture. To be blunt, you’re ignorant or you think we’re ignorant. 70% Industry Average on the Work variable multiplied by 90% on the Pay variable does NOT equate to Industry Average.
I don’t believe management folks such as yourself are really ignorant. Unfortunately, that leaves me with the conclusion that you think you’re smarter than your workforce and our representatives. I find your attitude and presumptions offensive and antagonistic.
Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
05-14-2017, 03:22 PM
#125
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 119
I would love to grab a beer sometime and of course it will be my treat..I would love to hear your opinions on how to improve this industry..if you are ever in the south Florida area you name the place I'll be there. That is how people in my position make things better..by listening to YOU. Everyone is so quick to criticize the decisions made and as leaders we are not here to make friends we are here to run a successful and profitable business so you and your colleagues can provide for and support you family. With that objective in mind there are a lot of good companies out there that have created a very positive work environment for a lot of people such as yourself..so when someone like Bob comes into a company like Spirit he has to figure out how to improve your overall performance as a company and since nobody likes change he is met with hostility and skepticism but let's look at the numbers..customer complaints are down considerably, OTP is trending upwards..these are two metrics that are essential to profitability and reliability..it may not seem like it right now it may seem hopeless but there is light at the end of the tunnel..you will get a new agreement but you can't expect to get an industry leading deal overnight and give up nothing in return. I genuinely hope I'm wrong but decades of experience tell me I'm not.
As for my low post count..even you had 8 posts at one time..maybe you will change your opinion one day when my post count reaches whatever is considered an acceptable level here..but in the meantime I challenge you to keep an open mind when someone with relevant experience goes advice..I don't put you down for sharing your opinion so try to give me the same courtesy.
As for my low post count..even you had 8 posts at one time..maybe you will change your opinion one day when my post count reaches whatever is considered an acceptable level here..but in the meantime I challenge you to keep an open mind when someone with relevant experience goes advice..I don't put you down for sharing your opinion so try to give me the same courtesy.
Bob just wants us to be low tier and have a cost neutral contract (his words, not mine)so he can continue to collect his $7.2 million, 13 times more pay than our previous CEO.
05-15-2017, 05:30 AM
#127
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: systems analyst
Posts: 757
Originally Posted by an225flyer
I can only hope that anyone who participated in the intimidation of your own work group realizes it was not done anonymously and will not fly at the airlines you are applying to. As leaders in the airline industry we are all in contact with one another and all meet regularly to discuss things such as this. So just be prepared to deal with the reputation you have created.
All because they are collectively not working overtime
Sorry to intrude spirit dudes. I find your fight a fascinating example of corporate greed in the modern era. Keep up the good fight, the market has your back.
It's amazing how some folks can't realize the impact that people have on an airline operation, and thus should not be treated like robots affecting the bottom line.
05-15-2017, 07:56 AM
#129
Banned
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 733
Wow, the Ford & Harrison trolling is strong here! That's right in the universal F&H negotiations playbook. "Go on pilot forums impersonating line pilots who just want to be reasonable, and lower everyone's expectations". Don't fall for it guys! Stand strong, those of us at other airlines are counting on you all! You've got them by the short hairs now, the injunction is their first cry of uncle. Keep twisting. You're almost there.
05-15-2017, 09:49 AM
#130
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Posts: 256
I can only hope that anyone who participated in the intimidation of your own work group realizes it was not done anonymously and will not fly at the airlines you are applying to. As leaders in the airline industry we are all in contact with one another and all meet regularly to discuss things such as this. So just be prepared to deal with the reputation you have created.
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