Our NewHire Failure rate hovering above 5%
10-11-2017, 04:03 AM
#101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: A319, A320, A321
Posts: 548
you whiners crack me up......
Stop it!
The training was designed for adults that can take the initiative to make some progress on their own. (notice i didn’t say theyre or there...)
i am no rocket scientist, and at no point did i feel put upon, or unnecessarily challenged with the training.
This is the point in your career where you are expected to be able to learn material- perhaps on your own, to an extent.
The training “issues” are easily second to the contract...
If someone can’t pass the training here-
i really don’t want to fly with you anyway.
Sack up.
Stop it!
The training was designed for adults that can take the initiative to make some progress on their own. (notice i didn’t say theyre or there...)
i am no rocket scientist, and at no point did i feel put upon, or unnecessarily challenged with the training.
This is the point in your career where you are expected to be able to learn material- perhaps on your own, to an extent.
The training “issues” are easily second to the contract...
If someone can’t pass the training here-
i really don’t want to fly with you anyway.
Sack up.
10-11-2017, 04:44 AM
#102
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 482
He brings up some valid points. I can't confirm it but from the looks of it he's an American FO.
10-11-2017, 05:35 AM
#103
Banned
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 163
I think the training program is garbage and always has been. Experienced folks generally figured out how to get through it. It's also why spirit used to highly descriminate against 135 applicants that were used to training as a customer.
Now we hire many 135 pilots many with no degree so their opportunities elsewhere are limited. We also now hire many low time rj FOs that have only been through 121 initial at a regional where you get many sims and spoon fed systems. I wish we did that here but we don't. The 7-10yr FO has no problem and has been around long enough to make it work. We are hiring guys that came from a piston and went to an rj for a year or less. Many of the current applicants not only struggle through training but are somewhat more challenging to fly with. Some not all. They struggle with decision making because they haven't had many of the experiences applicants several years ago came in with as prerequisites.
The other problem which has no reflection on how they do their job or get through training is that some are so young that they have no skin in the game financially. No family, no mortgage, no college fund, no life insurance. Saying dumb crap like YOLO. No concept of what a good professional living is. I know I didn't at 24.
Some of the young guys fly great but some have no business flying a jet with 200 people in the back.
Now we hire many 135 pilots many with no degree so their opportunities elsewhere are limited. We also now hire many low time rj FOs that have only been through 121 initial at a regional where you get many sims and spoon fed systems. I wish we did that here but we don't. The 7-10yr FO has no problem and has been around long enough to make it work. We are hiring guys that came from a piston and went to an rj for a year or less. Many of the current applicants not only struggle through training but are somewhat more challenging to fly with. Some not all. They struggle with decision making because they haven't had many of the experiences applicants several years ago came in with as prerequisites.
The other problem which has no reflection on how they do their job or get through training is that some are so young that they have no skin in the game financially. No family, no mortgage, no college fund, no life insurance. Saying dumb crap like YOLO. No concept of what a good professional living is. I know I didn't at 24.
Some of the young guys fly great but some have no business flying a jet with 200 people in the back.
10-11-2017, 06:41 AM
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: HUD cripple.
Posts: 314
You do realize the Delta has you go to basic INDOC, and then they send you home to learn the systems of the AC you were awarded on CBTs. I don't know how people don't know their flows by the time they come to class, hell they even send an email telling you when you get the job offer " Know your Flows". I really didn't think the training was that hard. It was time consuming, but not over board. Yes it would be nice to have a few more SIMs. As far as the CAs here, everyone I have flow with has been awesome. They are all professional. Maybe you should look in the mirror to see the problem. Take some accountability.
Four sims seems crazy for someone without any prior bus experience. I think we got 7, then the maneuvers validation and LOE (check ride).
We get two weeks of VFD/CPT including a few sessions in the sim, with the motion off before the systems test and start of sim.
We also don't do orals, it's a computer based "electronic systems validation". Much better than stump the dummy style orals.
I love the "sack up" comments. So much ancestor worship in this industry, or the "that's the way it was when I flew the Convair/-9/727, etc, so thats the way it needs to be now".
10-11-2017, 07:55 AM
#105
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2017
Posts: 37
I'll wager Delta pays you for that time you are studying systems, since it's after you start training. and all. Thats the way it's done at my shop. Initial systems is home study, before training starts, but we get paid for it. I'm not sure how it works for new hires, but if we change equipment, we get 50% of our hourly rate for the programmed home study hours.
Four sims seems crazy for someone without any prior bus experience. I think we got 7, then the maneuvers validation and LOE (check ride).
We get two weeks of VFD/CPT including a few sessions in the sim, with the motion off before the systems test and start of sim.
We also don't do orals, it's a computer based "electronic systems validation". Much better than stump the dummy style orals.
I love the "sack up" comments. So much ancestor worship in this industry, or the "that's the way it was when I flew the Convair/-9/727, etc, so thats the way it needs to be now".
Four sims seems crazy for someone without any prior bus experience. I think we got 7, then the maneuvers validation and LOE (check ride).
We get two weeks of VFD/CPT including a few sessions in the sim, with the motion off before the systems test and start of sim.
We also don't do orals, it's a computer based "electronic systems validation". Much better than stump the dummy style orals.
I love the "sack up" comments. So much ancestor worship in this industry, or the "that's the way it was when I flew the Convair/-9/727, etc, so thats the way it needs to be now".
Well lets not conflate these two thing; "sack up" isn't meant to point out that our training program is detailed and all inclusive of what a new hire will need to know. However guys are passing this program as we speak and 1700 on the list now have passed the program, so it can be done with some concentrated effort and study before you show up.
With anything in life, complaining and blaming others for your possible shortcomings will never be received well once above the age of 6.
A contrary to those who like to blame our instructors, every one I have dealt with has been great at what they do. But don't blame instructor if they can't take a low time/experience pilot and make them pass a type ride in 4 sims; some things are just outside of their skill set of techniques.
10-11-2017, 08:33 AM
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Position: to-go plate at hotel buffet
Posts: 808
I came here from an AQP airline. The level of difficulty between AQP and Spirit's system is night and day. With that being said, every pilot in my class hustled and passed the oral and checkride on their first try. 8 weeks of training jammed into 5 sucked but we made it work. There was a class that was starting towards the end of when we finished. Every night during indoc I'm pretty sure they partied and the washout rate ended up being some crazy number.
The training is difficult but it isn't impossible. No hand holding at Spirit and honestly that is where I feel the real company interview happens.
The training is difficult but it isn't impossible. No hand holding at Spirit and honestly that is where I feel the real company interview happens.
10-11-2017, 09:41 AM
#107
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2016
Posts: 612
Well seeing as in march of this year he was trying to decide to take his offer from either TSA or PSA I have to guess he doesn't work for AA. Just look back at their posts and it says it all
10-11-2017, 03:46 PM
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2010
Position: HUD cripple.
Posts: 314
Well lets not conflate these two thing; "sack up" isn't meant to point out that our training program is detailed and all inclusive of what a new hire will need to know. However guys are passing this program as we speak and 1700 on the list now have passed the program, so it can be done with some concentrated effort and study before you show up.
With anything in life, complaining and blaming others for your possible shortcomings will never be received well once above the age of 6.
A contrary to those who like to blame our instructors, every one I have dealt with has been great at what they do. But don't blame instructor if they can't take a low time/experience pilot and make them pass a type ride in 4 sims; some things are just outside of their skill set of techniques.
With anything in life, complaining and blaming others for your possible shortcomings will never be received well once above the age of 6.
A contrary to those who like to blame our instructors, every one I have dealt with has been great at what they do. But don't blame instructor if they can't take a low time/experience pilot and make them pass a type ride in 4 sims; some things are just outside of their skill set of techniques.
I'm sure the majority of your instructors are great people, and do what they can, given the limits of the program. And I totally agree, don't blame anyone else for your failures.
Four sims just seems like the company is short changing the new hires. Do they pair two new fo's together, and have them swap seats? Is all the sim time in the right seat, and then you are expected to do the ride from the left? Personally I think all your training time should be in the seat you will be qualified in.
IMHO, training should be a low stress, learning environment, with the end result a competent crew member. I'm not saying a trainee shouldn't have to put in the effort, but training shouldn't give you gray hair and ulcers.
I came here from an AQP airline. The level of difficulty between AQP and Spirit's system is night and day. With that being said, every pilot in my class hustled and passed the oral and checkride on their first try. 8 weeks of training jammed into 5 sucked but we made it work. There was a class that was starting towards the end of when we finished. Every night during indoc I'm pretty sure they partied and the washout rate ended up being some crazy number.
The training is difficult but it isn't impossible. No hand holding at Spirit and honestly that is where I feel the real company interview happens.
The training is difficult but it isn't impossible. No hand holding at Spirit and honestly that is where I feel the real company interview happens.
I spent the majority of my career doing non AQP training. At my first commuter (I'm an old guy, so commuter instead of regional) half of my new hire class didn't make it through training. Thats nuts. AQP is a much better way to do things. People will still wash out, but you have to work pretty hard at it.
If the selection and hiring program is doing its job, and the training department is on the ball, the failure rate should be very low.
I don't get the not going home part either. At my current shop, they encourage you to go home and forget about everything on your days off.
Best of luck to your pilot group, I hope you get a decent contract.
10-11-2017, 08:07 PM
#109
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 162
Our NewHire Failure rate hovering above 5%
Bottom feeders attract more bottom feeders. Especially in the training department where minimal professional oversight takes place while the draconian tyrants have their rings kissed.
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