Southwest questions
05-04-2017, 02:07 PM
#441
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 50
Apples to apples. Your are "factoring" in stuff while ignoring rigs and similar paid events of the OAL's. Fact is we are behind FedEx, UPS, United, Delta, now AA. That's for narrow body pay, retirement and many QOL issues,
"Pay isn't lacking" was still a popular theme even two years ago after our amendable date was years expired. This pilot group needs someone to tell them their peers are doing better and won't don't pay attention to anything outside of the SWA bubble until they are told to by someone like our union president. Not lacking compared to what?
There is almost a complete absence of belonging to a profession peer group at SWA and a radically strong sense of belonging to a company. This gives us our contractual results. Something else potential pilots here should know about. It a dynamic that's unlikely to change.
84 percent of our pilot group just got done voting for an 8 year agreement that was four years late, skipped an entire contract, which obviously would put us last of the big boys just for narrow body pay and retirement once AA got a new deal. Now they have. With record profits, cheap fuel, and the company doing 5 to 6 billion in buybacks. So that's where we are. It's a broken record here. Cause "pay isn't lacking" Everyone has their bonus check from being 4 years late and their 2016 W-2's reflecting it so this group is solidly back in la la land denial. Another thing to consider.
"Pay isn't lacking" was still a popular theme even two years ago after our amendable date was years expired. This pilot group needs someone to tell them their peers are doing better and won't don't pay attention to anything outside of the SWA bubble until they are told to by someone like our union president. Not lacking compared to what?
There is almost a complete absence of belonging to a profession peer group at SWA and a radically strong sense of belonging to a company. This gives us our contractual results. Something else potential pilots here should know about. It a dynamic that's unlikely to change.
84 percent of our pilot group just got done voting for an 8 year agreement that was four years late, skipped an entire contract, which obviously would put us last of the big boys just for narrow body pay and retirement once AA got a new deal. Now they have. With record profits, cheap fuel, and the company doing 5 to 6 billion in buybacks. So that's where we are. It's a broken record here. Cause "pay isn't lacking" Everyone has their bonus check from being 4 years late and their 2016 W-2's reflecting it so this group is solidly back in la la land denial. Another thing to consider.
05-04-2017, 02:16 PM
#442
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,776
SWA 12 year captain rate: $218.25 per TFP
SWA 12 year FO rate: $152.78 per TFP
June 2017 line info (30 day month)
Of our 10 bases the average line pay varies in pay from 94.56 in PHX to 97.35 in ATL
The average number of days off varies from 16.96 in Dallas to 16.88 in OAK.
The line with the single highest max pay in base varies from 111.7 in ATL to 108.35 in PHX. There are one of this lines in each bases. A handful in the range looking down 3 TFP or so.
The lowest paying lines pay 87 of which there are lots n lots of. From 87 to 90 there is a huge percentage of total lines.
So what's a normal SWA guy really make?
12 year FO $152.78 x 97 TFP $177.8k a year
5 year FO $131.05 x 97 TFP $152.5k a year
12 year captain $218.25 x 97 $254k a year
Let's say you are the 1 one ATL guy and every month you bid the highest paying line. $292.5k a year
Let's say you get stuck with one of the many 87 TFP lines and fly it.
218.25 x 87 : $227k a year for a 12 year captain
Our guys will add all sorts of stuff to claim they earn more than they do. That's fine and the company loves it but you must compare apples to apples.
The company sends us a letter at home once a year and reminds us how much they pay for each of us. It includes things like social seciruty taxes. As though at contract time we remind them of our net pay after taxes including the social security taxes we pay too. It's laughable but it sets the mindset because it plays into pilot egos to see how much they really cost, like it's their salary or something.
Remember the retirement factor. Millions in difference over a 30 year career potentially. It's not a bad place to work overall but it is working harder for less pay and retirement.
Where are we the best? Well probably our vacation drop system is right up there, maybe the best. Our scope language is pretty good. Most other things are lagging pretty good.
SWA 12 year FO rate: $152.78 per TFP
June 2017 line info (30 day month)
Of our 10 bases the average line pay varies in pay from 94.56 in PHX to 97.35 in ATL
The average number of days off varies from 16.96 in Dallas to 16.88 in OAK.
The line with the single highest max pay in base varies from 111.7 in ATL to 108.35 in PHX. There are one of this lines in each bases. A handful in the range looking down 3 TFP or so.
The lowest paying lines pay 87 of which there are lots n lots of. From 87 to 90 there is a huge percentage of total lines.
So what's a normal SWA guy really make?
12 year FO $152.78 x 97 TFP $177.8k a year
5 year FO $131.05 x 97 TFP $152.5k a year
12 year captain $218.25 x 97 $254k a year
Let's say you are the 1 one ATL guy and every month you bid the highest paying line. $292.5k a year
Let's say you get stuck with one of the many 87 TFP lines and fly it.
218.25 x 87 : $227k a year for a 12 year captain
Our guys will add all sorts of stuff to claim they earn more than they do. That's fine and the company loves it but you must compare apples to apples.
The company sends us a letter at home once a year and reminds us how much they pay for each of us. It includes things like social seciruty taxes. As though at contract time we remind them of our net pay after taxes including the social security taxes we pay too. It's laughable but it sets the mindset because it plays into pilot egos to see how much they really cost, like it's their salary or something.
Remember the retirement factor. Millions in difference over a 30 year career potentially. It's not a bad place to work overall but it is working harder for less pay and retirement.
Where are we the best? Well probably our vacation drop system is right up there, maybe the best. Our scope language is pretty good. Most other things are lagging pretty good.
- Reserve at most other airlines are between 18-20 days of work. Here, it's 15-16 days. Unlike at other airlines, you'll fly and likely credit a lot on reserve here. My personal best... 3-day reserve block blocking 11 hours paying 33 TFP. Had a few with similar numbers.
- Bid lines... at most other places, your line will have 15-17 workdays and credit 78-85 hours. You'll fly 13-14 here. What are those extra days off worth to you and your family?
- Ability to pick up premium here. As a first year guy, I was able to get premium trips. My friends at other airlines struggle a bit with the ability to do that. I never did.
But you know one thing I really like here? Having a choice. If I want to work my butt off, I can. If I only want to fly my line, I can do that too. I dropped a trip this month due to overlap, and I don't have to pick up another one if I choose not to. Choices, my brother... something here for everyone. So far, I've always been able to ELITT my way into a schedule I want or get the stretches of days I wanted off. And no, I don't hang on CWA all day. SWAPA gives us tools, and I use them to the max.
As a first year guy, I was able to consistently average over 12k a month in pay not counting per diem or NEC banging away from 150-170 trips per month. I worked for it and averaged 10-12 days off. My block for the month would range between 82-85 hours. Again, that's as a first year guy. Agreed, not everyone can do it. I live in base, so it hasn't really been that difficult. Some of my classmates did better than me. Others only flew their line. Bottom line, again, choices...
Now... could things be better? Absolutely. I also think we could have gotten the Platform had we shot down TA2. I voted NO and I'm proud of it. Hell, I even told my CP during my 9 month eval that I voted no and told him why. I think our LOL/LTD needs major overhaul. That was the tipping point for me. But that's just me. The TA2 passed, and that's it. I'm just hopeful that the cocoon most senior people have lived under at this airline, particularly since 9/11, now shields me and my family for the next 2.5 decades. As a good friend once said... grass always appears greener elsewhere because it's been fertilized with a different brand of b.s.
05-04-2017, 02:31 PM
#443
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2011
Posts: 374
Guys be careful out there. If the culture committee can get to Whack, they can get to any of us. No one is safe...!
05-04-2017, 02:49 PM
#444
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,803
I call it as I see it, whether it's good or bad.
05-04-2017, 03:17 PM
#445
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 50
As a first year guy, I was able to consistently average over 12k a month in pay not counting per diem or NEC banging away from 150-170 trips per month. I worked for it and averaged 10-12 days off. My block for the month would range between 82-85 hours. Again, that's as a first year guy. Agreed, not everyone can do it. I live in base, so it hasn't really been that difficult. Some of my classmates did better than me. Others only flew their line. Bottom line, again, choices...
Current first year rate after the big bump we received on 10/1/2016 is $67.32 TFP. This, by the way, was a disproportionate raise targeted to 1st year guys to attract pilots. It obfuscates the lagging contract. Shiny!
I assume you did your first year before we received that raise but let's assume you were making that rate already. What was the old first year rate? ...50 something I think.
So $144,000 divided by $67.32 by 12 would be averaging 178.25 trips per month. Throw in some second year pay pickup....if you indeed made over 12k a month your first year, which I strongly doubt, and you absolutely were somehow getting 150 to 170 TFP a month average, which I also doubt.
So as is the norm here, something smells strongly with your wage claim. It also doesn't explain a lot of other issues surrounding seniority related schedule manipulation capability for a newbie which makes your claim even more dubious.
Now with our new rates can a 2nd year FO crack 110k to 120k if they pick up ? Yep. But I made my moniker here especially for guys with claims like yours there.
05-04-2017, 03:41 PM
#446
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,776
Southwest questions
So what you are claiming is that you made over $144k your first year not flying 150 to 170 TFP. This claim should cause pause and it's exactly what I'm talking about.
Current first year rate after the big bump we received on 10/1/2016 is $67.32 TFP. This, by the way, was a disproportionate raise targeted to 1st year guys to attract pilots. It obfuscates the lagging contract. Shiny!
I assume you did your first year before we received that raise but let's assume you were making that rate already. What was the old first year rate? ...50 something I think.
So $144,000 divided by $67.32 by 12 would be averaging 178.25 trips per month. Throw in some second year pay pickup....if you indeed made over 12k a month your first year, which I strongly doubt, and you absolutely were somehow getting 150 to 170 TFP a month average, which I also doubt.
So as is the norm here, something smells strongly with your wage claim. It also doesn't explain a lot of other issues surrounding seniority related schedule manipulation capability for a newbie which makes your claim even more dubious.
Now with our new rates can a 2nd year FO crack 110k to 120k if they pick up ? Yep. But I made my moniker here especially for guys with claims like yours there.
Current first year rate after the big bump we received on 10/1/2016 is $67.32 TFP. This, by the way, was a disproportionate raise targeted to 1st year guys to attract pilots. It obfuscates the lagging contract. Shiny!
I assume you did your first year before we received that raise but let's assume you were making that rate already. What was the old first year rate? ...50 something I think.
So $144,000 divided by $67.32 by 12 would be averaging 178.25 trips per month. Throw in some second year pay pickup....if you indeed made over 12k a month your first year, which I strongly doubt, and you absolutely were somehow getting 150 to 170 TFP a month average, which I also doubt.
So as is the norm here, something smells strongly with your wage claim. It also doesn't explain a lot of other issues surrounding seniority related schedule manipulation capability for a newbie which makes your claim even more dubious.
Now with our new rates can a 2nd year FO crack 110k to 120k if they pick up ? Yep. But I made my moniker here especially for guys with claims like yours there.
For those not familiar, the first year line is all first year rate of $67.32/trip. The second line is all second year rate at $97.34/trip.
First year pay of 89.93 TFP x $67.32 = $6,054.09
Second year pay of 73.24 TFP x $97.34 = $7,129.18
Total TFP: 163.17
Total pay, not counting per diem or NEC: $13,183.27
Want more?
My point in all this GR... if you want to work, you can do well here, and you can do so with relative ease. It really helps if you live in your domicile.
I also only share my experiences with people on this board who are looking to come here. I want them to have as much info as possible. Guys like Zap, Flyguy81, Whack, Burton78 and others have been really helpful to me with their contributions before I came onboard, and I want to pay it forward as well. Your posts are informative, truthful and provide another perspective from a guy who doesn't want to work more than bare minimum. No argument there... but your last post was uncalled for.
Last edited by RJSAviator76; 05-04-2017 at 04:07 PM.
05-04-2017, 04:07 PM
#447
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2011
Posts: 374
He said he worked 20ish days a month to get there. Totally doable in that timeframe for a guy who lives in base and understands the contract.
05-04-2017, 05:05 PM
#448
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 50
He said he averaged 10 to 12 days off for the whole first year and is using an FO rate for 1st and 2nd year that began on 10/1/16. He's showing evidence of a month and that's easy to do.
How much block was that month ?
05-04-2017, 05:51 PM
#449
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,776
Southwest questions
Well alrighty then... here's another one.
My blocks are around 82-85 hours. The one month I did around 175, I blocked just over 88. The one in previous post - 80:38. You know what's funny? I'm not even the highest crediting guy in my class, or even second highest. A classmate of mine who's still on reserve does even better than me. And no, neither one of us is in a cartel in case you were wondering. All it takes is knowing a thing or two about the contract and some strategy to keep your block low so you can do stuff like this.
For example... someone keeps telling first year guys to only bid open time at straight because that's how they get second year pay. That's a true statement, but only tells a portion of the story. You will also get second year pay if you get it at a premium, and you can often get it even as a first year guy. They didn't tell us this in initial. Another way to get second year pay is to pick up reserve blocks from open time at straight (still paid at second year rate) because once you become Scheduling's whipping boy, you get premium at second year pay whenever they change your trip and bring you back to base later than originally scheduled. Worst case, you sit at home unused and get 6 TFP per day at second year rate. Also helps to know a thing or two about caps, and realizing that the order of bidders for each open trip is not necessarily how the award will go. Also, utilizing all tools available so you're not spending your life on CWA. In short, it helps to know the contract.
As I said before, we have choices here. We can work the bare bones minimum here which is still several days per month less than our peers and have a lot of time at home. We can work about the same amount as our peers. Or we can work more and make more. The beauty of having a choice...
My blocks are around 82-85 hours. The one month I did around 175, I blocked just over 88. The one in previous post - 80:38. You know what's funny? I'm not even the highest crediting guy in my class, or even second highest. A classmate of mine who's still on reserve does even better than me. And no, neither one of us is in a cartel in case you were wondering. All it takes is knowing a thing or two about the contract and some strategy to keep your block low so you can do stuff like this.
For example... someone keeps telling first year guys to only bid open time at straight because that's how they get second year pay. That's a true statement, but only tells a portion of the story. You will also get second year pay if you get it at a premium, and you can often get it even as a first year guy. They didn't tell us this in initial. Another way to get second year pay is to pick up reserve blocks from open time at straight (still paid at second year rate) because once you become Scheduling's whipping boy, you get premium at second year pay whenever they change your trip and bring you back to base later than originally scheduled. Worst case, you sit at home unused and get 6 TFP per day at second year rate. Also helps to know a thing or two about caps, and realizing that the order of bidders for each open trip is not necessarily how the award will go. Also, utilizing all tools available so you're not spending your life on CWA. In short, it helps to know the contract.
As I said before, we have choices here. We can work the bare bones minimum here which is still several days per month less than our peers and have a lot of time at home. We can work about the same amount as our peers. Or we can work more and make more. The beauty of having a choice...
05-04-2017, 07:18 PM
#450
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,670
Getreal,
I am glad you are posting because I think you make an important point:
When comparing our apples to a legacy apple, ours are kinda small and mushy.
We do a lot more work for the same buck by design. We pay for parking, uniforms, and have some fairly open contract language in more than a few areas. Since I am all about getting ready for 2020 today, I totally agree that we need to keep these things on the front burner and fight to change them.
That's great among us girls, but if I am talking to a friend about how much money they are going to make here, I am going to be realistic and tell them what my experience has been. For the vast majority of pilots here, 12-13 days at work and 100-105 tfp is the reality. There are outliers in both directions.
I am glad you are posting because I think you make an important point:
When comparing our apples to a legacy apple, ours are kinda small and mushy.
We do a lot more work for the same buck by design. We pay for parking, uniforms, and have some fairly open contract language in more than a few areas. Since I am all about getting ready for 2020 today, I totally agree that we need to keep these things on the front burner and fight to change them.
That's great among us girls, but if I am talking to a friend about how much money they are going to make here, I am going to be realistic and tell them what my experience has been. For the vast majority of pilots here, 12-13 days at work and 100-105 tfp is the reality. There are outliers in both directions.
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