Southwest questions
05-04-2017, 05:10 AM
#431
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,670
Basically no, it's not real. $300k possible for a 12 year captain? Yes but you will still bust your hump for that.
It's also why we are always lagging the legacies in pay despite being the most profitable US passenger airline. It's why we have a weak union. It's why many don't even know enough to know we have a weak union.
Because we have this contingent of guys who will try to live at the airport and their computers (so far..that's fine), but who will forget to mention we just skipped an entire labor agreement period because of their ilk, and then the same will include a 4 year retro bonus on their 2016 W-2 as their "pay" and then go around waving it like the flag as to how much SWA pilots make even as they still have to pay for their own airport parking unlike even the shabbiest of regional airlines. It's pretty amazing. They are the reason we have a weak union largely. (SWAPA better lately but still off-key and dangerously dependent on a charismatic president)
You have rates available to you online. It's now $218.25 per TFP for a 12 year guppy commander. A line averages about 95 TFP which most guys will fly if they commute. Most will do a little more if they don't. It's still a lot of work on an ongoing basis. Then there is 1.5 times for premium flying. Hard to get except when they hose you online which will happen about once a month on average.
So if you want to know what all but the very tippy tip tip lucdicrous loonies make, take 100 or 110, multiply it by 218.25, add $550 for per diem if you are inclined, and there is your 12 year captain monthly pay (being a little generous with assumptions.)
Not claiming poverty. It's a living. But..
Our B fund is 13 percent going to 15 by 2019 so even then our retirement won't be industry standard now or years from now. Our profit sharing isn't matched with a company contribution such as say Delta, and our retirement curve sucks eggs compared to all the legacies. Our recently improved 1st year pay only helps to obfuscate our other contractual deficiencies for newbies.
Is it a terrible job? Well no, not at all. Needs to be a whole lot better contractually though to become truly inline with our Legacy, FedEx, UPS peers and even that won't fix the retirement curve upgrade paradigm for new guys.
Ask yourself if you want to be 62 years old flying 4 legs a day with aircraft swaps, 85 hours a month and 10 hour days smashing around in a 737 foeva. Or going over the pond 4 times a month in your 777 Oldsmobile dilly deluxe cruising vessel wondering what you are gonna do in Brussels for a day. 737 is a fine airplane, but think about it. I mean really think about it! How many 60 year old dudes surf? The ones who do think it's awesome! Okay...will that be you? Really?
I understand not everyone has the luxury of choice between SWA and FedEx or Delta or AA. Also is the big matter of where you want to live and the base choices at all the airlines. I'd guess a SWA career would probably be a better choice than say Spirit or JetBlue if those were your alternatives. And for certain people it's possible it could be better than a legacy or FedEx/UPS. Some of the folks here are getting steered by a contingent of company tribalists I'm afraid although nobody has a crystal ball that isn't MEL'd.
Anyhow, good luck to you all and I don't blame anyone for coming here or going elsewhere but some of the posts here demand a strong dose of reality from some senior line swine types to enable your informed decision. I feel lucky I have my career. I didn't think about everything. Not really. Still did alright alright.
Peace Out!
Good luck to you all.
It's also why we are always lagging the legacies in pay despite being the most profitable US passenger airline. It's why we have a weak union. It's why many don't even know enough to know we have a weak union.
Because we have this contingent of guys who will try to live at the airport and their computers (so far..that's fine), but who will forget to mention we just skipped an entire labor agreement period because of their ilk, and then the same will include a 4 year retro bonus on their 2016 W-2 as their "pay" and then go around waving it like the flag as to how much SWA pilots make even as they still have to pay for their own airport parking unlike even the shabbiest of regional airlines. It's pretty amazing. They are the reason we have a weak union largely. (SWAPA better lately but still off-key and dangerously dependent on a charismatic president)
You have rates available to you online. It's now $218.25 per TFP for a 12 year guppy commander. A line averages about 95 TFP which most guys will fly if they commute. Most will do a little more if they don't. It's still a lot of work on an ongoing basis. Then there is 1.5 times for premium flying. Hard to get except when they hose you online which will happen about once a month on average.
So if you want to know what all but the very tippy tip tip lucdicrous loonies make, take 100 or 110, multiply it by 218.25, add $550 for per diem if you are inclined, and there is your 12 year captain monthly pay (being a little generous with assumptions.)
Not claiming poverty. It's a living. But..
Our B fund is 13 percent going to 15 by 2019 so even then our retirement won't be industry standard now or years from now. Our profit sharing isn't matched with a company contribution such as say Delta, and our retirement curve sucks eggs compared to all the legacies. Our recently improved 1st year pay only helps to obfuscate our other contractual deficiencies for newbies.
Is it a terrible job? Well no, not at all. Needs to be a whole lot better contractually though to become truly inline with our Legacy, FedEx, UPS peers and even that won't fix the retirement curve upgrade paradigm for new guys.
Ask yourself if you want to be 62 years old flying 4 legs a day with aircraft swaps, 85 hours a month and 10 hour days smashing around in a 737 foeva. Or going over the pond 4 times a month in your 777 Oldsmobile dilly deluxe cruising vessel wondering what you are gonna do in Brussels for a day. 737 is a fine airplane, but think about it. I mean really think about it! How many 60 year old dudes surf? The ones who do think it's awesome! Okay...will that be you? Really?
I understand not everyone has the luxury of choice between SWA and FedEx or Delta or AA. Also is the big matter of where you want to live and the base choices at all the airlines. I'd guess a SWA career would probably be a better choice than say Spirit or JetBlue if those were your alternatives. And for certain people it's possible it could be better than a legacy or FedEx/UPS. Some of the folks here are getting steered by a contingent of company tribalists I'm afraid although nobody has a crystal ball that isn't MEL'd.
Anyhow, good luck to you all and I don't blame anyone for coming here or going elsewhere but some of the posts here demand a strong dose of reality from some senior line swine types to enable your informed decision. I feel lucky I have my career. I didn't think about everything. Not really. Still did alright alright.
Peace Out!
Good luck to you all.
I am not a rah rah SWA guy at all, but the half million dollar guys exist and they will do it this year without the bonus. I have flown with two guys, one an Orlando captain and one a MDW captain who average 210-250 a month. One of them flew over 350 in a summer month. One was real humble about it, the other not so much.
Yes, those guys lived on the road and both were constantly on CWA, like to an annoying degree. One was a commuter to boot.
I agree about many of the things in your post. This is a 737 airline. There are great things about that and there are not so great things about that. I have done the international long haul flying in another life and I am glad to be done with it. Flying across multiple time zones does not agree with my body at all. I understand that some guys like it and many feel they want to try it. You won't do that here. Probably not ever.
If you look at the big picture of our pay and retirement, we are doing pretty well here. I think the picture you paint is a little bleaker than reality. I still wear a black tie and held a sign during negotiations. I am ready to go back to the mat to get what we deserve, but the contract we have now is light years ahead of where we were a year ago.
05-04-2017, 05:33 AM
#432
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2011
Posts: 374
Basically no, it's not real. $300k possible for a 12 year captain? Yes but you will still bust your hump for that.
So if you want to know what all but the very tippy tip tip lucdicrous loonies make, take 100 or 110, multiply it by 218.25, add $550 for per diem if you are inclined, and there is your 12 year captain monthly pay.
So if you want to know what all but the very tippy tip tip lucdicrous loonies make, take 100 or 110, multiply it by 218.25, add $550 for per diem if you are inclined, and there is your 12 year captain monthly pay.
Using the old payrate of $189 it would still only take 129tfp to get to $300k. Totally doable with a little effort to work your schedule. This board is littered with new hires claiming 120tfp+ monthly totals and much higher.
If you ONLY bid/fly your line with no effort whatsoever to trade or improve your schedule, you'll end up with 100-105tfp/month and 13-14 days of flying. If that's busting your hump then ok, but everybody can do that here regardless of seniority horsepower.
For those who do have a little seniority and knowledge of the system, trip totals upwards of 130tfp/month in 13-15 days are commonplace. I personally averaged 125tfp/month last year flying 13 days and I was on reserve for 3 months. Now to get above 170tfp you really do need a high degree of seniority and 18-22 days at work but there are a few guys who do that and more every month.
05-04-2017, 05:34 AM
#433
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 50
A light year ahead of where WE were a year ago, (5 years of zero raises with record profits, no B fund at all, and having been Heismanned for an entire labor contract because of a spineless membership and rudderless union) does almost nothing to help the decision matrix for those trying to make a career decision. How many light years do we have to to go to reach actual narrow-body parity is a better question for prospective newhires with choices. It's how we compare to our peers, their career progression to the left seat and QOL.
By the way I wasn't referring to you as being a company tribalist. Your stuff is pretty objective within in the short term SWA bubble of LUV of recent. Where you are missing scope IMO is on the outside. Which is oh so common at Amway, oh I meant here!
By the way I wasn't referring to you as being a company tribalist. Your stuff is pretty objective within in the short term SWA bubble of LUV of recent. Where you are missing scope IMO is on the outside. Which is oh so common at Amway, oh I meant here!
05-04-2017, 06:06 AM
#434
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 50
Using your numbers with per diem at 110tfp a 12yr captain will make $294,690. That's pretty darn close to $300k and the company average is 108tfp/month. Any/every captain can do that here (yes, even on reserve), not just the top 20% seniority guys who are all on widebodys at brand X.
Using the old payrate of $189 it would still only take 129tfp to get to $300k. Totally doable with a little effort to work your schedule. This board is littered with new hires claiming 120tfp+ monthly totals and much higher.
If . If that's busting your hump then ok, but everybody can do that here regardless of seniority horsepower.
For those who do have a little seniority and knowledge of the system, trip totals upwards of 130tfp/month in 13-15 days are commonplace. I personally averaged 125tfp/month last year flying 13 days and I was on reserve for 3 months. Now to get above 170tfp you really do need a high degree of seniority and 18-22 days at work but there are a few guys who do that and more every month.
Using the old payrate of $189 it would still only take 129tfp to get to $300k. Totally doable with a little effort to work your schedule. This board is littered with new hires claiming 120tfp+ monthly totals and much higher.
If . If that's busting your hump then ok, but everybody can do that here regardless of seniority horsepower.
For those who do have a little seniority and knowledge of the system, trip totals upwards of 130tfp/month in 13-15 days are commonplace. I personally averaged 125tfp/month last year flying 13 days and I was on reserve for 3 months. Now to get above 170tfp you really do need a high degree of seniority and 18-22 days at work but there are a few guys who do that and more every month.
85 tfp is 223k a year at 12 year captain rates.
Pilots love to brag about the big numbers guys even when it's not them. It's odd, but especially prevalent here compared to all the other airlines I've worked at. It's doesn't help anything. Why not just tell these guys the truth. It's better than ULCC's.
The stuff you spewed about only flying your line and doing nothing else and getting 105 or wherever is overlap or a JA in good months and forgetting crap from overlap in bad. And in those "good months" naturally your days off will be less. The lines average is 95ish and that's what it works out to averaged out to without JA's. Go figure. Be real with these guys.
What's SWA tell the mortgage company what our income is when they check? That's cause it's real average line pay. We have thousands of captains making less than 250k in salary. Nobody talks about it. That's cultish. Instead of the size of our ding dongs, or what YOU flew or that guy you once heard about who made 380 tfp one month, why not tell these guys the real deal. Seems like we are always overstating and the legacy OAL's understate. Which is wiser? Or we will add retro bonuses or match money to our claims to impress the impressionable for an ego boost.
05-04-2017, 06:13 AM
#435
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 50
Using your numbers with per diem at 110tfp a 12yr captain will make $294,690. That's pretty darn close to $300k and the company average is 108tfp/month. Any/every captain can do that here (yes, even on reserve), not just the top 20% seniority guys who are all on widebodys at brand X.
Using the old payrate of $189 it would still only take 129tfp to get to $300k. Totally doable with a little effort to work your schedule. This board is littered with new hires claiming 120tfp+ monthly totals and much higher.
If . If that's busting your hump then ok, but everybody can do that here regardless of seniority horsepower.
For those who do have a little seniority and knowledge of the system, trip totals upwards of 130tfp/month in 13-15 days are commonplace. I personally averaged 125tfp/month last year flying 13 days and I was on reserve for 3 months. Now to get above 170tfp you really do need a high degree of seniority and 18-22 days at work but there are a few guys who do that and more every month.
Using the old payrate of $189 it would still only take 129tfp to get to $300k. Totally doable with a little effort to work your schedule. This board is littered with new hires claiming 120tfp+ monthly totals and much higher.
If . If that's busting your hump then ok, but everybody can do that here regardless of seniority horsepower.
For those who do have a little seniority and knowledge of the system, trip totals upwards of 130tfp/month in 13-15 days are commonplace. I personally averaged 125tfp/month last year flying 13 days and I was on reserve for 3 months. Now to get above 170tfp you really do need a high degree of seniority and 18-22 days at work but there are a few guys who do that and more every month.
85 tfp is 223k a year at 12 year captain rates.
Pilots love to brag about the big numbers guys even when it's not them. It's odd, but especially prevalent here compared to all the other airlines I've worked at. It's doesn't help anything. Why not just tell these guys the truth. It's better than ULCC's.
The stuff you spewed about only flying your line and doing nothing else and getting 105 or wherever is overlap or a JA in good months and forgetting crap from overlap in bad. And in those "good months" naturally your days off will be less. The lines average is 95ish and that's what it works out to averaged out without JA's or training
extras. Go figure. Be real with these guys.
What's SWA tell the mortgage company what our income is when they check? That's cause it's real average line pay. We have thousands of captains making less than 250k in salary. Nobody talks about it. That's cultish. Instead of the size of our ding dongs, or what YOU flew or that guy you once heard about who made 380 tfp one month, why not tell these guys the real deal. Seems like we are always overstating and the legacy OAL's understate. Which is wiser? Or we will add retro bonuses or match money to our claims to impress the impressionable for an ego boost.
On You Tube there is a Delta
Vs. UPS Contract Comparison piece outlining the difference in reitiement systems. Take a look at that and notice the deficiencies in the UPS b fund numbers they have to make up with their A fund pension to get to Delta parity. Our retirement isn't even as good as UPS sans their A fund let alone Deltas stuff. Not to mention our practically Nonexistent hotel language and substandard narrow body pay. And it's only getting worse with AA's new deal. These are the things or at least some of the things these guys need to know. Our contract isn't amendable until 2020 and traditionally we go years after our amendable date before we get a deal.
Last edited by Get Real; 05-04-2017 at 06:27 AM.
05-04-2017, 10:12 AM
#436
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2012
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 508
Southwest questions
I don't see anyone embellishing here at all. Everyone made it pretty clear that the people that attain these astronomical numbers are busting their ass to do it. Also, remember for everyone that credits these high numbers of trips per month, there are still plenty of people still dropping mil leave every month crediting 70 or less bringing the total average back down. Your mention of 85 trips a month is somewhat laughable for your average SWA pilot unless you're shooting for 19 days off a month. I'm sure those people exist too.
I'd say 108 is pretty accurate for what you could expect with minimal effort despite your bleak point of view. 9 times out of 10 when the topic of trips per month is brought up with whoever I fly with, they respond by saying they usually shoot for around 110-115 and I look for about the same as long as it affords me 15-17 days off.
I'd say 108 is pretty accurate for what you could expect with minimal effort despite your bleak point of view. 9 times out of 10 when the topic of trips per month is brought up with whoever I fly with, they respond by saying they usually shoot for around 110-115 and I look for about the same as long as it affords me 15-17 days off.
Last edited by Burton78; 05-04-2017 at 10:28 AM.
05-04-2017, 11:02 AM
#437
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2011
Posts: 374
Again it's the same story for our group. 108 average is a tad rosey but lets go with it. But average isn't median: If 108 is average and all these guys are supposedly doing 130 then there are a whole bunch of guys making 85. And there are.
85 tfp is 223k a year at 12 year captain rates.
85 tfp is 223k a year at 12 year captain rates.
My point, is that anyone at ANY seniority level can make 110tfp happen all year long. $300k captains are everywhere at this company and you were implying that those guys are basically unicorns. Now if we are talking about $500k/yr guys then I'd agree they are so far outside the standard deviation that they're really not worth talking about.
I agree with you on the retirement/hotels aspect but the bigger picture for a prospective SWA new hire is that we have great flexibility and the ability to fly as much or as little as you like. Again, 110tfp is a VERY realistic, achievable number for anyone willing to go to work for 13 days a month. With a little effort it's quite possible to do better.
05-04-2017, 12:00 PM
#438
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 50
SWA 12 year captain rate: $218.25 per TFP
SWA 12 year FO rate: $152.78 per TFP
June 2017 line info (30 day month)
Of our 10 bases the average line pay varies in pay from 94.56 in PHX to 97.35 in ATL
The average number of days off varies from 16.96 in Dallas to 16.88 in OAK.
The line with the single highest max pay in base varies from 111.7 in ATL to 108.35 in PHX. There are one of this lines in each bases. A handful in the range looking down 3 TFP or so.
The lowest paying lines pay 87 of which there are lots n lots of. From 87 to 90 there is a huge percentage of total lines.
So what's a normal SWA guy really make?
12 year FO $152.78 x 97 TFP $177.8k a year
5 year FO $131.05 x 97 TFP $152.5k a year
12 year captain $218.25 x 97 $254k a year
Let's say you are the 1 one ATL guy and every month you bid the highest paying line. $292.5k a year
Let's say you get stuck with one of the many 87 TFP lines and fly it.
218.25 x 87 : $227k a year for a 12 year captain
Our guys will add all sorts of stuff to claim they earn more than they do. That's fine and the company loves it but you must compare apples to apples.
The company sends us a letter at home once a year and reminds us how much they pay for each of us. It includes things like social seciruty taxes. As though at contract time we remind them of our net pay after taxes including the social security taxes we pay too. It's laughable but it sets the mindset because it plays into pilot egos to see how much they really cost, like it's their salary or something.
Remember the retirement factor. Millions in difference over a 30 year career potentially. It's not a bad place to work overall but it is working harder for less pay and retirement.
Where are we the best? Well probably our vacation drop system is right up there, maybe the best. Our scope language is pretty good. Most other things are lagging pretty good.
SWA 12 year FO rate: $152.78 per TFP
June 2017 line info (30 day month)
Of our 10 bases the average line pay varies in pay from 94.56 in PHX to 97.35 in ATL
The average number of days off varies from 16.96 in Dallas to 16.88 in OAK.
The line with the single highest max pay in base varies from 111.7 in ATL to 108.35 in PHX. There are one of this lines in each bases. A handful in the range looking down 3 TFP or so.
The lowest paying lines pay 87 of which there are lots n lots of. From 87 to 90 there is a huge percentage of total lines.
So what's a normal SWA guy really make?
12 year FO $152.78 x 97 TFP $177.8k a year
5 year FO $131.05 x 97 TFP $152.5k a year
12 year captain $218.25 x 97 $254k a year
Let's say you are the 1 one ATL guy and every month you bid the highest paying line. $292.5k a year
Let's say you get stuck with one of the many 87 TFP lines and fly it.
218.25 x 87 : $227k a year for a 12 year captain
Our guys will add all sorts of stuff to claim they earn more than they do. That's fine and the company loves it but you must compare apples to apples.
The company sends us a letter at home once a year and reminds us how much they pay for each of us. It includes things like social seciruty taxes. As though at contract time we remind them of our net pay after taxes including the social security taxes we pay too. It's laughable but it sets the mindset because it plays into pilot egos to see how much they really cost, like it's their salary or something.
Remember the retirement factor. Millions in difference over a 30 year career potentially. It's not a bad place to work overall but it is working harder for less pay and retirement.
Where are we the best? Well probably our vacation drop system is right up there, maybe the best. Our scope language is pretty good. Most other things are lagging pretty good.
05-04-2017, 12:22 PM
#439
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2017
Posts: 50
There are a lot of regret stories here from people who felt like they were sold a bill of goods....and there are a lot of happy blisssful people here who don't care about what their peers make.
05-04-2017, 01:35 PM
#440
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,803
Get Real, for me to say that you're being unrealistic/pessimistic will probably shock some on this forum because I'm not known as a SWA cheerleader given past history and the "LUV" that was bestowed upon myself and my peers.
So with that said, 13 days of work to achieve 110 tfp by the end of the month is infinitely reasonable for anyone at the airline no matter their seniority. We're talking about at the END of the month and not your original line award. Factor in the usual schit that occurs throughout a month to practically everyone (credit for engine runs, a little or a lot of ELITTing, overfly, JA(?), etc.)
Even the most junior Cptn can make 300K under the new contract and still have more days off than on. Agreed that we need MUCH better hotel language and some other things that even the Regionals have. There's plenty of room for improvement for sure but let's be honest......the pay is not lacking even for the most unmotivated of individuals.
So with that said, 13 days of work to achieve 110 tfp by the end of the month is infinitely reasonable for anyone at the airline no matter their seniority. We're talking about at the END of the month and not your original line award. Factor in the usual schit that occurs throughout a month to practically everyone (credit for engine runs, a little or a lot of ELITTing, overfly, JA(?), etc.)
Even the most junior Cptn can make 300K under the new contract and still have more days off than on. Agreed that we need MUCH better hotel language and some other things that even the Regionals have. There's plenty of room for improvement for sure but let's be honest......the pay is not lacking even for the most unmotivated of individuals.
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