Southwest Hiring Info 2016
09-04-2016, 06:19 PM
#2401
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 191
e6b,
I've compared my schedule with friends at legacies and I'll take my schedule over theirs any day of the week. Yes, when I'm at work I generally work harder those days than legacies, but the difference is I earn the same pay or more than they do in less days at work. Which in my book means I make more -- a good comparison would be to look at average pay per day. For me it is all about Time Away from Base. Don't really care what they do to me while on the road, to an extent and within the legalities of our CBA, I just want the most money for every hour spent away from home. And from my non-scientific research on the subject at Southwest we beat the legacies by a good amount using my metric of $ per time away from base.
Put another way: if SWA pilot and a United pilot, both flying narrow-bodies, both in the same seat with the same years of service, both make the same pay in a month but the Southwest guy only worked 15 days and the United pilot worked 18 days, who made the most money? Well, the answer is they made the same amount, but I think most people would rather have the extra 3 days off at home vs. those extra 3 days on the road with those unproductive trips.
Thunder 1
I've compared my schedule with friends at legacies and I'll take my schedule over theirs any day of the week. Yes, when I'm at work I generally work harder those days than legacies, but the difference is I earn the same pay or more than they do in less days at work. Which in my book means I make more -- a good comparison would be to look at average pay per day. For me it is all about Time Away from Base. Don't really care what they do to me while on the road, to an extent and within the legalities of our CBA, I just want the most money for every hour spent away from home. And from my non-scientific research on the subject at Southwest we beat the legacies by a good amount using my metric of $ per time away from base.
Put another way: if SWA pilot and a United pilot, both flying narrow-bodies, both in the same seat with the same years of service, both make the same pay in a month but the Southwest guy only worked 15 days and the United pilot worked 18 days, who made the most money? Well, the answer is they made the same amount, but I think most people would rather have the extra 3 days off at home vs. those extra 3 days on the road with those unproductive trips.
Thunder 1
Thank you
09-04-2016, 06:21 PM
#2402
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 191
I'm pretty sure that UAL doesn't have any 737-800 FO's. They get the base -700 rate and the -800 rate is a override for flights done on a 800/900.
A UAL guy will have to chime in as to what % of their month is done at the override as an avg to get a more accurate Apple to Apple comparison.
A UAL guy will have to chime in as to what % of their month is done at the override as an avg to get a more accurate Apple to Apple comparison.
09-04-2016, 06:35 PM
#2403
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2016
Posts: 39
e6b,
I've compared my schedule with friends at legacies and I'll take my schedule over theirs any day of the week. Yes, when I'm at work I generally work harder those days than legacies, but the difference is I earn the same pay or more than they do in less days at work. Which in my book means I make more -- a good comparison would be to look at average pay per day. For me it is all about Time Away from Base. Don't really care what they do to me while on the road, to an extent and within the legalities of our CBA, I just want the most money for every hour spent away from home. And from my non-scientific research on the subject at Southwest we beat the legacies by a good amount using my metric of $ per time away from base.
Put another way: if SWA pilot and a United pilot, both flying narrow-bodies, both in the same seat with the same years of service, both make the same pay in a month but the Southwest guy only worked 15 days and the United pilot worked 18 days, who made the most money? Well, the answer is they made the same amount, but I think most people would rather have the extra 3 days off at home vs. those extra 3 days on the road with those unproductive trips.
Thunder 1
I've compared my schedule with friends at legacies and I'll take my schedule over theirs any day of the week. Yes, when I'm at work I generally work harder those days than legacies, but the difference is I earn the same pay or more than they do in less days at work. Which in my book means I make more -- a good comparison would be to look at average pay per day. For me it is all about Time Away from Base. Don't really care what they do to me while on the road, to an extent and within the legalities of our CBA, I just want the most money for every hour spent away from home. And from my non-scientific research on the subject at Southwest we beat the legacies by a good amount using my metric of $ per time away from base.
Put another way: if SWA pilot and a United pilot, both flying narrow-bodies, both in the same seat with the same years of service, both make the same pay in a month but the Southwest guy only worked 15 days and the United pilot worked 18 days, who made the most money? Well, the answer is they made the same amount, but I think most people would rather have the extra 3 days off at home vs. those extra 3 days on the road with those unproductive trips.
Thunder 1
09-04-2016, 06:47 PM
#2404
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,715
Yeah ok I get it.
Just when you are comparing our pay to theirs, it isn't apples to apples. That's my point. That's why we use 108tfp as our standard and not 90.
I am all on board with the SWA way of doing things, and believe me I enjoy my days off. I am just saying that per unit of work, we earn less. Don't misconstrue my post or put words in my mouth. Everyone here seems to be pretty happy with themselves right now, and it is good to see some positivity for a change. Last I checked though we are still paying for parking and uniforms and having to practically stage a revolt to get food when we fly.
Just when you are comparing our pay to theirs, it isn't apples to apples. That's my point. That's why we use 108tfp as our standard and not 90.
I am all on board with the SWA way of doing things, and believe me I enjoy my days off. I am just saying that per unit of work, we earn less. Don't misconstrue my post or put words in my mouth. Everyone here seems to be pretty happy with themselves right now, and it is good to see some positivity for a change. Last I checked though we are still paying for parking and uniforms and having to practically stage a revolt to get food when we fly.
09-05-2016, 05:12 AM
#2405
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: A320 FO , prior CRJ CA
Posts: 81
OK, let's do it, and please feel free to shoot holes through my math or assumptions. UAL's work rules perhaps? But here we go...
108 TFP is equivalent of 94 hours using 1.149 conversion factor.
UAL 2nd year B-737-800 FO
$122/hour x 94 hours = $11,468
UAL's B-plan of 16% = $ 1,835
This comes out to $13,303/month.
Using this year's proposed rates here at SWA for 2nd year FO:
108 TFP's x 97.35 = $10,514
SWA B-plan of 12% = $ 1,262
Ours comes out to $11,776/month using the same figures.
As I said earlier, work rules come into play. I am not that familiar with UAL's work rules.
But interestingly, check this out:
UAL's 6th year B-737-800 FO
$153/hour x 94 hours = $14,382
UAL's 16% B-fund = $ 2,311
Total: $16,693
SWA 6th year FO assuming this passes:
$140.40 per trip x 108 TFP = $15,163
SWA B-plan 12% = $ 1,820
Total: $16,983
See the difference?
Again, not familiar with their work rules, but these are side-by-side numbers.
108 TFP is equivalent of 94 hours using 1.149 conversion factor.
UAL 2nd year B-737-800 FO
$122/hour x 94 hours = $11,468
UAL's B-plan of 16% = $ 1,835
This comes out to $13,303/month.
Using this year's proposed rates here at SWA for 2nd year FO:
108 TFP's x 97.35 = $10,514
SWA B-plan of 12% = $ 1,262
Ours comes out to $11,776/month using the same figures.
As I said earlier, work rules come into play. I am not that familiar with UAL's work rules.
But interestingly, check this out:
UAL's 6th year B-737-800 FO
$153/hour x 94 hours = $14,382
UAL's 16% B-fund = $ 2,311
Total: $16,693
SWA 6th year FO assuming this passes:
$140.40 per trip x 108 TFP = $15,163
SWA B-plan 12% = $ 1,820
Total: $16,983
See the difference?
Again, not familiar with their work rules, but these are side-by-side numbers.
UAL X 94 hours is the factor for the comparison ? Are they averaging 94 hours a month? At AA, first year will rarely see guarantee of 72 ish and most line holders will not credit over 80 a month. I am doing the math because I'm flowing AA in less than 6 months, or I have a SWA invite to interview and now have to seriously consider the AIP!! So all things considered, it seems the ability to earn pay with a higher number of days off lands with SWA. I doubt I will see CA again at either airlines. So FO long term pay and BENEFITS are a focus. HELP!!!!!
09-05-2016, 07:36 AM
#2409
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,715
UAL X 94 hours is the factor for the comparison ? Are they averaging 94 hours a month? At AA, first year will rarely see guarantee of 72 ish and most line holders will not credit over 80 a month. I am doing the math because I'm flowing AA in less than 6 months, or I have a SWA invite to interview and now have to seriously consider the AIP!! So all things considered, it seems the ability to earn pay with a higher number of days off lands with SWA. I doubt I will see CA again at either airlines. So FO long term pay and BENEFITS are a focus. HELP!!!!!
I don't know what the picture is for seniority movement, but here are my updated Pro's and cons for SWA. Anyone else please feel free to correct me:
Pros:
Schedule flexibility - it is super easy to get huge blocks of days off, move days around, or add flying to suit your needs. I can easily get a block of 10 days off in any given month if I want to. This month I was able to put together 16 days off in a row at one point. Of course, I needed to eat next month, so I have to add days, but you get the picture. You can make your own vacation if you want without having vacation. It is not as easy to get trips pulled or fly less, but with some luck and staring at a computer screen, that is possible too, even for Junior FOs.
Pay - with our new AIP, pay is on parity with other carriers. You can earn more, but you will bust your hump to do it. Some make a killing here, even as a senior FO. Our retirement will finally be on par with the industry. ADisclaimer - the AIP is still not even a TA.
People - I find that most of the crews I fly with are enjoyable, fun, and genuinely enjoy their jobs and coworkers. It is not rare for an entire crew to go down to the bar, even those that don't drink, and socialize after a long day. This is not always the case, obviously, but it does happen quite a bit. I tend to enjoy work.
SWAPA is on a roll - I feel proud to be a member of such a strong home grown union. This has not always been the case. We have great leadership right now.
Cons:
Warrior spirit - is a SWA term for "working for free". Humping strollers, pushing wheelchairs, cleaning the cabin, etc are all norms for the pilot group. Yes, I do it too.
"We don't need paid parking, we are lucky to just be working here" is a pervasive attitude here. You have to get used to hearing things like this.
You will work more for the same amount as your peers. Period. Anyone who tells you different is lying. My block over the last year is in the high 800s. I have made a lot of money, though.
You will never see bigger equipment. The 737 is the 737. Loud and designed in the 1960s. They have put a lot of lipstick on it, but it is still a pig.
We treat going to Mexico like it is going to the moon. We have to reinvent everything. It is actually kind of funny, but it gets old.
Upgrade time is in the 10-15 year time frame. I am ok with that, are you?
It isn't Herb's airline anymore - enough said there. Our senior management has shown the pilots nothing but disdain over the last 4 years.
All in all, it's a great place to work, but it's just a job. As an extremely junior lineholder, I am able to get 17-18 days off a month on any given month just by bidding my line that pays 90ish TFP. I can add or subtract (a little) as I see fit.
09-05-2016, 07:50 AM
#2410
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Narrow/Left Wide/Right
Posts: 3,655
I don't know what the picture is for seniority movement, but here are my updated Pro's and cons for SWA. Anyone else please feel free to correct me:
Pros:
Schedule flexibility - it is super easy to get huge blocks of days off, move days around, or add flying to suit your needs. I can easily get a block of 10 days off in any given month if I want to. This month I was able to put together 16 days off in a row at one point. Of course, I needed to eat next month, so I have to add days, but you get the picture. You can make your own vacation if you want without having vacation. It is not as easy to get trips pulled or fly less, but with some luck and staring at a computer screen, that is possible too, even for Junior FOs.
Pay - with our new AIP, pay is on parity with other carriers. You can earn more, but you will bust your hump to do it. Some make a killing here, even as a senior FO. Our retirement will finally be on par with the industry. ADisclaimer - the AIP is still not even a TA.
People - I find that most of the crews I fly with are enjoyable, fun, and genuinely enjoy their jobs and coworkers. It is not rare for an entire crew to go down to the bar, even those that don't drink, and socialize after a long day. This is not always the case, obviously, but it does happen quite a bit. I tend to enjoy work.
SWAPA is on a roll - I feel proud to be a member of such a strong home grown union. This has not always been the case. We have great leadership right now.
Cons:
Warrior spirit - is a SWA term for "working for free". Humping strollers, pushing wheelchairs, cleaning the cabin, etc are all norms for the pilot group. Yes, I do it too.
"We don't need paid parking, we are lucky to just be working here" is a pervasive attitude here. You have to get used to hearing things like this.
You will work more for the same amount as your peers. Period. Anyone who tells you different is lying. My block over the last year is in the high 800s. I have made a lot of money, though.
You will never see bigger equipment. The 737 is the 737. Loud and designed in the 1960s. They have put a lot of lipstick on it, but it is still a pig.
We treat going to Mexico like it is going to the moon. We have to reinvent everything. It is actually kind of funny, but it gets old.
Upgrade time is in the 10-15 year time frame. I am ok with that, are you?
It isn't Herb's airline anymore - enough said there. Our senior management has shown the pilots nothing but disdain over the last 4 years.
All in all, it's a great place to work, but it's just a job. As an extremely junior lineholder, I am able to get 17-18 days off a month on any given month just by bidding my line that pays 90ish TFP. I can add or subtract (a little) as I see fit.
Pros:
Schedule flexibility - it is super easy to get huge blocks of days off, move days around, or add flying to suit your needs. I can easily get a block of 10 days off in any given month if I want to. This month I was able to put together 16 days off in a row at one point. Of course, I needed to eat next month, so I have to add days, but you get the picture. You can make your own vacation if you want without having vacation. It is not as easy to get trips pulled or fly less, but with some luck and staring at a computer screen, that is possible too, even for Junior FOs.
Pay - with our new AIP, pay is on parity with other carriers. You can earn more, but you will bust your hump to do it. Some make a killing here, even as a senior FO. Our retirement will finally be on par with the industry. ADisclaimer - the AIP is still not even a TA.
People - I find that most of the crews I fly with are enjoyable, fun, and genuinely enjoy their jobs and coworkers. It is not rare for an entire crew to go down to the bar, even those that don't drink, and socialize after a long day. This is not always the case, obviously, but it does happen quite a bit. I tend to enjoy work.
SWAPA is on a roll - I feel proud to be a member of such a strong home grown union. This has not always been the case. We have great leadership right now.
Cons:
Warrior spirit - is a SWA term for "working for free". Humping strollers, pushing wheelchairs, cleaning the cabin, etc are all norms for the pilot group. Yes, I do it too.
"We don't need paid parking, we are lucky to just be working here" is a pervasive attitude here. You have to get used to hearing things like this.
You will work more for the same amount as your peers. Period. Anyone who tells you different is lying. My block over the last year is in the high 800s. I have made a lot of money, though.
You will never see bigger equipment. The 737 is the 737. Loud and designed in the 1960s. They have put a lot of lipstick on it, but it is still a pig.
We treat going to Mexico like it is going to the moon. We have to reinvent everything. It is actually kind of funny, but it gets old.
Upgrade time is in the 10-15 year time frame. I am ok with that, are you?
It isn't Herb's airline anymore - enough said there. Our senior management has shown the pilots nothing but disdain over the last 4 years.
All in all, it's a great place to work, but it's just a job. As an extremely junior lineholder, I am able to get 17-18 days off a month on any given month just by bidding my line that pays 90ish TFP. I can add or subtract (a little) as I see fit.
Line bidding, you know exactly what you'll get with a pattern and it tends to even out the seniority. IE if Xmas falls on a wednesday and short of vacation, a senior line holder may have to bid weekend work to avoid the holiday. In PBS the computer would find a way to give the senior guy weekends off and christmas off as well.
Plus: Your vacation trip touching/drop seems like a great deal.
Con: Ability of your pilots to just sell vacation time back.
But of course, one person's pro is another persons con.
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