gipple

Just spent an enlightening 4 day trip with a transitioned over Air Tran pilot. He was there seven years and within days of upgrading when the ACQUISITION was announced. He was in the first few classes to come over and "couldn't get away from Air Tran fast enough". Explained that it was a sinking ship in his opinion and had Air Tran been left on its own with the inevitable strike looming. 3 days was going to be it. The plan from management was going to be day 1 figure out where to move aircraft. Day 2 move them. Day 3 turn out the lights.
He was so pessimistic about his Air Tran future that he had put out resumes to his former employers and to a sim academy. He couldn't be happier and a pleasure to work with. Great person. He also completely blew up the myth about the ever increasing pay losses. 20k then 30k now 40k. This FO's pay is 80k more now than Air Tran. He said he would challenge any Air Tran captain to match his SWA FO pay. Ever. Pre ACQUISITION rates of course. Biggest mistake according to him was the MEC not letting the first SLI go out to a vote. He held no animosity towards either SWAPA or management but did he have some choice words for **** stirrers like the master of whack and jerky boy himself Frank Rizzo.
Happy New Year!

WHACKMASTER

Two other things that I'm getting exceedingly sick and tired of is the assertion that our Union (MEC) flushed away the first SLI agreement (AIP1) by not letting us vote on it and also the insinuation that the only reason we got our contract settled is because of the merger.

First of all, even IF the MEC had decided to not consult with the pilot group and request feedback on what to do with the first piece of garbage, they would have been well within their right to shove it back across the table. They DID however listen to the pilots on what they wanted and I can assure you that they did agonize over their decision.

Where it was feasible to actually poll the pilots the reps represented (the smaller bases of MKE and MCO), those local reps actually called every pilot and took a vote on whether to send it back or not. Overwhelmingly the response was that the "offer" was insulting and to send it back without a vote. In the large domicile of ATL, there was no informal poll taken but the reps received feedback by way of phone calls, emails, and road shows. I don't know how a poll would have broken down amongst ATL pilots, but I do know that those who let their voices be heard the loudest where obviously the pilots that wanted it sent back, but that's certainly not to say that there weren't some who passionately felt they should be able to vote on it.

The point is that the union did not go rogue and simply send back the agreement on their own (although they legally could have per ALPA Bylaws). So while SW pilots seem to love to say "Your Union pi$$ed away the agreement that would have protected your Cptn seats", it's simple not true. At a relative seniority loss of 33% along with 4 years DOH, I was one of "those guys" that was very vocal about sliding that pos right back across the table. Insulting to say the least.

WRT to our six year struggle to get a contract, with a 99% vote to authorize a strike if needed and a 98% participation rate in that vote, you can bet that things would have been settled quite expeditiously once released by the NMB to Self-Help. Thanks for your help though Gary, in helping AirTran management see the error of their ways

We're forever indebted to you.......

Frank Rizzo

IF this actually happened, and I have my doubts, I can guarantee you that this mystery man is one of the 120 a-holes that is suing ALPA. I can also guarantee he is one of the few weak minded individuals who believed the company propaganda that's passed around the training center.

According to our old management, AirTran has been going out of business since its inception. We've all heard the same BS horror stories every year in recurrent. They've been trying to manage pilot expectations for as long as I've worked here. Management would tell us one story, then turn around and say something completely different to wall street. Who in their right mind thinks the AirTran BOD and shareholders would allow management to shut down a profitable and growing airline? I'll tell you who, the idiot you supposedly flew with.

This dip$!ht also needs to invest in a calculator. I have a lot of friends that already crossed and I know for certain, I'm looking at a sizable ($40K+) pay loss. If I wasn't I'd have probably already come over.

That was a good story tho, tell us another one.

newKnow

Smokey,

I did read your posts. So far, you are providing a fine example of a losing seniority list integration argument. These losing types of arguments normally come from an emotional place, not a rational one. You even assume you can make an emotional argument to me as a pilot to make a point. Except, seniority lists are determined by unemotional arbitrators who have to put in writing the reasoning behind their decisions.

Losing SLI arguments also see only their perspective and fail to take into account that arbitrators will also look at the other perspective, as well. In your case, your ultimatums of what is and what is not acceptable from a SWAPA perspective is another example of a shortsighted and incomplete point. I get it. From your vantage point, this was not a merger of equals. But, you miss the other half of the argument. To a senior Air Tran pilot who was born and raised in Atlanta, who flew trips to the Caribbean every week, it was not a merger of equals, either. Which one is an arbitrator to believe?

Finally, losing SLI arguments don't take into account what arbitrators inevitably fall back on to justify their decisions -- money. If you can explain how the money distribution is unfair, then you have the arbitrators attention. Mainly, because over the years they have probably learned that, when the pertinent question is asked the correct way, money is pretty much the only thing that both sides will agree about. Emotional pleas of what's fair and isn't fair are subjective and hard to justify in writing. Arbitrators will ignore them.

Believe it or not, Tsquare and I have had this discussion before (that's why he has the popcorn). He is a big proponent of the longevity based pay that you guys have. I am not. I'm against it mainly because of what I believe would happen to our seniority list if we merged with another carrier -- a straight ratio with possible adjustments for retirements and protections for possible retrenchment.

You see, your Atlas example falls on deaf ears to an arbitrator when all captains get paid the same and all FO's get paid the same. Vacations, days off, holidays, bidding for bases, and every thing that comes with seniority don't really matter, because they don't easily equate to lost money.

Your emotional arguments of what you thought was fair and not fair would probably have been ignored, as well. The best chance you would have had in front of an arbitrator is if you had some way to prove that Air Tran pilots, in the list presented, would have cost SWA pilots money in the long run. I've never seen any of you even attempt to do it.

So, how would a straight ratio list -- with retirements factored in & protections for possible retrenchment -- equate to some kind of lost present or future income for SWA pilots?

That is the question that was never answered. If you can answer it, then the question will finally be answered.

WHACKMASTER

His math doesn't add up in many of his comments. As for AirTran management's supposed actions in the event of a strike....YHGTBSM, right? Yeah, I'm sure they'd be willing to pi$$ away a mostly profitable company over a measly pilot contract. The next time you fly with the guy, tell him he's delusional. I've got experience in the strike department and can tell you that he's out of his mind if he thinks they were going to shut our airline down because of us wanting a better contract.

As for the comparison of AT Cptn pay to SW F/O pay, puullleeeez. Again, talk to those that are in that position of having transitioned and have the real world comparison. Unless they're super, super senior F/Os (which means they would have had to of been very senior AT Cptns.) and continuously flying 1.5X trips, it's been a pay cut. Pure and simple.

And why the "preaquisition" rate comparison again? Oh that's right, because we owe it all to GK and this merger that we got those rates. You guys are some of the most pompous, arrogant, delusional, self-centered, and misguided work group I've ever had the misinformation of being associated with.

WHACKMASTER

newKnow, if I had a nickel for every time I heard "what did I get out of this deal" from a SW pilot's mouth.......

As if they were owed something by their company because of this merger. Unreal..........

gipple

Nice name calling. He was 100% believable. Not a pushover. Been around the block. It must be true judging how quick you both were to respond and how venomous your attacks are. And he sure had you two lovers pegged.

WHACKMASTER

Exactly, a certain few names come to mind when this guy's mentality is described. Mr. Yoga is one of them amongst others.

One of my favorite past times was listening to our illustrious VP of Flt Ops come into recurrent ground school and spew his doom and gloom propaganda in an effort to manage our expectations. Then I'd go talk to our ATL CP and get completely conflicting information about some things. They should have at least gotten their stories straight. It's called "managing expectations" and comes STRAIGHT out of the airline management playbook. You know, kind of like GK is trying to do now.

Only a moron would bite off on management's propaganda, but every pilot group has their share of morons. It sounds like the previous poster had the pleasure of flying with one.

WHACKMASTER

Well send him my regards in that case

Frank Rizzo

Kinda like your story?

Anyway, almost everyone who has transitioned, did so voluntarily. We have 1200 yet to go. Be sure to ask them how this integration is working out for them.