Smokey23

Hope you had a merry Christmas, newK. I sure did, thanks.

So, back to it:

Tell you what Counselor, I'll lose the "attitude" if you lose the condescension. Deal?

If you'll go back and RTFP, I contributed more than just that. I thought my hypothetical scenario was a fine example, put in terms you as a Delta pilot should understand, as to why straight relative was not an appropriate starting point from SWAPA's perspective (anymore than a straight staple was for ATN-ALPA). You cannot leave longevity out of the equation when dealing with two airlines as disparate as SWA and ATN were at the time. I know it's all about the equipment in ALPA's world, but the bottom line is that from SWAPA's perspective, this was not a merger of equals (like say, DAL-NWA) in spite of the similar equipment. Ask some of the more vocal ATN pilots around here and they will obviously tell you different, but that's the root of the contention. Nothing new here that wasn't already hashed out a zillion times in those previous threads you participated in.

Question finally answered?

OscartheGrouch

Okay NK here we go. Same equipment but different pay and benefits. Weighted value for certain items that SWAPA thought should be of consideration were minimized.

I was in favor of the first agreement that left the AT folks with "their seats."

When their MEC voted it down it became evident to me that good faith and compromise would not be part of AT ALPA's agenda. They wanted an ALPA solution to a situation that was only partially ALPA's concern. Their bluff was called and we wound up where we are. After the vote came down I was pretty much done with it but was drawn into the discussion because of accusations and misinformation here on APC. You and others can disagree with me on my opinion, but being called a thief and arrogant by people who were not even hired at AT or VJ when I was hired at SWA is odd to me. Compromise and evaluation of where someone should be on the "list" is certainly up to debate in my opinion. I do however believe that some, including Frank and the WM believe they should be on some wonderful lollipop list where they received everything and gave up nothing. It did not work out for them that way. I personally think they should have wound up with a better position on the list. I am but one lowly fairly senior pilot who has the luxury of thinking this way and I was also over ruled by others. Not much sympathy left given the vitriol spewed forth after both sides voted 84% for what we will have to live with.

I pledge to treat all AT folks with dignity and respect. I will not put up with disrespectful treatment of my fellow employees. Fair and equitable will always be up for debate. I would say that even a professional arbitrator will have doubts about their final decision. Otherwise I would not want them to rule on the thickness of my toilet paper. Just saying!

Good luck to us all.

The Oscar

I do have a question for you NK. Why do you think it should have started at relative seniority and worked it's way into a different conclusion then it did? After all, I would say that my qualifications were the same as those who were hired at a major in 1990. I even blew off my interview at NWA and did not bother to call and say I wouldn't be making it. Should I be on a list that doesn't equate to those who were hired at NWA when I was supposed to interview?






The curious Oscar

OscartheGrouch

The Smokey is correct. A review of this discussion is available with very little effort. Time to move on? I doubt it somehow.

The Oscar

wiggy

Refresh my memory, how is it that SWAPA, or GK or anyone at SW could have made an objective determination that the AT guys were acting in bad faith in their negotiations?....And one more time...how is it the SW guys were so averse to arbitration by an objective neutral...who, afterall would likely have seen the obvious overarching superior "merger equities" the SW group brought to the table?

Oscar, I'm glad you think the AT guys should have fared better...from an outside perspective, it is only reasonable that they should have. Realize too, of course that your great fortune at the expense of the AT pilots had nothing to do with the collective talents of your group as represented by the apparently impotent SWAPA union...

It's too bad you all didn't go to arbitration, where you could have displayed such talent, such qualifications...such richly deserved status and expounded on such contributions you'd made to your industry-leading LCC...for the whole world to see...and all to result in a likely favorable and reasonable SLI outcome, all things considered. Instead you'll be forever known as the patsies that rode Gary Kelly's bluff-calling, cram-down machismo to an historical, industry-leading SLI windfall.

Smokey23

At the risk of stealing Oscar's thunder...

Don't take the bait, Oscar. Wiggy, these questions have all been asked & answered plenty in the previous threads. I'd post some links here, but you're just not worth the effort.

My goodness, just listen to your pompous self. As an outsider, where do you get off making such proclamations?

Most of us got over being marginalized by "real" airline pilots like your double-breasted self a long time ago. On the contrary, we wear it as a badge of honor. After all, who's kidding who....no matter the outcome of the SLI, it wouldn't have changed your opinion about us one iota.

Tailwinds,

tsquare

I'll probably regret this, but heregoes:

From an outside persective, what would have seemed to be 'fair' would have been to protect all SWA pilots hired before VJ came into being. After that, as much as ya'll hate to admit it, you did the same job on the same airplanes of which they brought their own to the game. Therefore, there should have been a relative ratio after that with a no bump/no flush clause. Captains stayed captains. The one issue was the 717s, and anybody with active synapses knew that they would not stay at SWA. GK's remarks to the contrary were political bull**** to get the DOJ and all parties concerned to buy off on the deal. However as shoelu has said, they are being replaced. ( I still don't see the numbers that verify this claim however) The worst thing that would happen would be stagnation for all pilots which sucks, but it is not anything approaching everybody being thrown out of the left seat. And as an aside, we thank you for the very inexpensive airplanes

80ktsClamp

I hate Southwest because almost once or more a trip I fly through MDW, and I barely ever see more than 1 Southwest plane moving at a time. How can you guys cut me off if you're always sitting at the gate??

Now I'm going to go hate on Alaska some more. Beady eyes and fluffy headgear....

Aloha

I stop by here once every six months or so........ just to see if you guys have grown up yet.

It's time to move on. AT got bought....... they fought the good fight......and lost. Trannys thought arbitration was the final outcome, Gary did not agree and pulled the rug out. The end.

It's hard core business.

It's over.

AT pilots can come aboard or get another job. All the *****ing in the world (just or not) is not going to change any facts. It will only make you more miserable every time you go to work or get into the cockpit.

Get busy livin' or get busy dyin' -

Frank Rizzo

Thanks for the advice. It sure makes me feel better when someone who was unaffected by, or better yet, benefited from, my seniority/seat loss tells me I should get over it or get another job.

Most of us will never get over it, and that should surprise nobody. My work ethic will reflect that.

I'll keep on livin' but I'll never forget how this whole thing went down.

WHACKMASTER

You know Aloha, the thought of how much your union and CEO conspired to screw us AFTER AGREEING TO A PROCESS AGREEMENT THAT WASN'T FOLLOWED is infuriating enough, but what really send me through the roof is when someone who benefited from this "merger" has the nerve and audacity to tell me to "get over it".

Do you realize just how much irony there is in that? As Rizzo said, a lot of us will NEVER get over it. Here's something you might want to start getting through your head.......you'd better start accepting the fact that you'll have to deal with some of our schitty attitudes for the rest of our careers at SW.

You guys made your bed and wanted the chips to fall this way, now deal with some of the repercussions that screwing over a group of pilots will inevitably have. I'd say it's a minor inconvenience given the seniority gain and Cptns. seats that you got.