Why you like/dislike SWA
12-24-2013, 04:40 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: B737/Capt
Posts: 998
"The Oscar" Geeze. What kind of show are you putting on here? What a joke, somebody gives a fairly concise behind the scenes summation of what happened with the SLI and you try to call him out on specifics...on details of how it should have gone...Then somebody states the obvious, that any reasonable process was subverted...that the SLI was forced on them at the threat of their jobs, and in response you go off crying about a "personal attack"...you big tough Marine...Yeah, suddenly the conversation you solicited is "personally done" when the response to your clever challenge is not met with "gosh, now that you put it that way, you're right Oscar, we have no idea how the SLI should have been decided"...Get a clue dude. Your company royally screwed the AT pilots on the SLI...It is a fact...realize it was only because your CEO "could" screw them that he did...Obviously "might makes right"...right Oscar? Not negotiation or arbitration by a NEUTRAL arbitrator...oh yeah for whatever reason an attempt at an objectively fair integration just "wasn't in the cards" I'm sure...
Every single AT captain position gone? Poof! YGTBSM! As an outsider to your little SLI drama, a 28 year Captain and Navy veteran at your friendly and admiring "legacy competitor", I say to you, Mr. 22 year LCC koolaid drinking FLUF driver and Jarhead extraordinaire, if you think you, or any other SW fluff-driving sky god can justify what happened to the AT pilots, then quite simply you must put down the crack-pipe..."Wallow in your misery"? Unbelievable...Please Oscar, don't *******up what is rapidly becoming your arrogant reputation any more than you have already. Simply continue the line that "we had no control" or "our CEO did it"...or even better "yeah, it could have been more fair"...and hope the karma gods don't eventually rip you the entirely new and uncontemplated a***hole you may yet so richly deserve.
Every single AT captain position gone? Poof! YGTBSM! As an outsider to your little SLI drama, a 28 year Captain and Navy veteran at your friendly and admiring "legacy competitor", I say to you, Mr. 22 year LCC koolaid drinking FLUF driver and Jarhead extraordinaire, if you think you, or any other SW fluff-driving sky god can justify what happened to the AT pilots, then quite simply you must put down the crack-pipe..."Wallow in your misery"? Unbelievable...Please Oscar, don't *******up what is rapidly becoming your arrogant reputation any more than you have already. Simply continue the line that "we had no control" or "our CEO did it"...or even better "yeah, it could have been more fair"...and hope the karma gods don't eventually rip you the entirely new and uncontemplated a***hole you may yet so richly deserve.
Merry Christmas to you to buddy! Early tomorrow morning I, along with my wife and two of my daughters will be making and serving breakfast for some homeless women. Hope you find some meaning and purpose this holiday season besides the vitriol and hate you spewed forth in you post. You might want to have your blood pressure checked.
The bold above is the absolute truth I suppose? Asking someone where they think they should have been on an arbitrated SLI is so out of line? Don't be such a squid.
Whether the AT folks thought it was a fair deal or not, the first offer included keeping their captain's seat. Their MEC, with guidance from their members wanted an arbitrated decision in my opinion and stalled at every opportunity. Gary Kelly, not me personally called their bluff.
The Oscar
12-24-2013, 07:33 AM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: A330 First Officer
Posts: 1,465
Oscar,
I appreciate your loyalty to your organization, however you very much seem to have view that SWA can do no wrong or the best thing since sliced bread.
I've only been in this industry for 14 years but I have learned one thing.. you may be the top of the heap today but you could very well be the goat tomorrow. I got hired to SWA in March 2000 and was waiting for a class date when I got hired by Delta and was put into a class before you guys could give me one. At the time, Delta was the better choice for a career. You guys didn't even stack up in the pay rates until the last ten years and mostly that was due to the extreme pay cuts taken by the legacy airlines.
In 2000 every one wanted to be a United pilot due to their new contract. Then in 2001 we surpassed that contract and Delta was the envy. Then 911 happenned and SWA, FEDEX and UPS became the end all be all jobs in the airlines. It's just one big cycle.
While on furlough, I flew with a lot of rEAL pilots at my furlough jobs. Some of these guys had over 2 decades with EAL before it went away. This was an airline that a lot of people aspired to be hired to. I just showed that even the best can disappear.
Remember these:
Eastern Airline
Braniff
Trans World Airlines
Pan Am
I appreciate your loyalty to your organization, however you very much seem to have view that SWA can do no wrong or the best thing since sliced bread.
I've only been in this industry for 14 years but I have learned one thing.. you may be the top of the heap today but you could very well be the goat tomorrow. I got hired to SWA in March 2000 and was waiting for a class date when I got hired by Delta and was put into a class before you guys could give me one. At the time, Delta was the better choice for a career. You guys didn't even stack up in the pay rates until the last ten years and mostly that was due to the extreme pay cuts taken by the legacy airlines.
In 2000 every one wanted to be a United pilot due to their new contract. Then in 2001 we surpassed that contract and Delta was the envy. Then 911 happenned and SWA, FEDEX and UPS became the end all be all jobs in the airlines. It's just one big cycle.
While on furlough, I flew with a lot of rEAL pilots at my furlough jobs. Some of these guys had over 2 decades with EAL before it went away. This was an airline that a lot of people aspired to be hired to. I just showed that even the best can disappear.
Remember these:
Eastern Airline
Braniff
Trans World Airlines
Pan Am
12-24-2013, 08:47 AM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: B737/Capt
Posts: 998
Oscar,
I appreciate your loyalty to your organization, however you very much seem to have view that SWA can do no wrong or the best thing since sliced bread.
I've only been in this industry for 14 years but I have learned one thing.. you may be the top of the heap today but you could very well be the goat tomorrow. I got hired to SWA in March 2000 and was waiting for a class date when I got hired by Delta and was put into a class before you guys could give me one. At the time, Delta was the better choice for a career. You guys didn't even stack up in the pay rates until the last ten years and mostly that was due to the extreme pay cuts taken by the legacy airlines.
In 2000 every one wanted to be a United pilot due to their new contract. Then in 2001 we surpassed that contract and Delta was the envy. Then 911 happenned and SWA, FEDEX and UPS became the end all be all jobs in the airlines. It's just one big cycle.
While on furlough, I flew with a lot of rEAL pilots at my furlough jobs. Some of these guys had over 2 decades with EAL before it went away. This was an airline that a lot of people aspired to be hired to. I just showed that even the best can disappear.
Remember these:
Eastern Airline
Braniff
Trans World Airlines
Pan Am
I appreciate your loyalty to your organization, however you very much seem to have view that SWA can do no wrong or the best thing since sliced bread.
I've only been in this industry for 14 years but I have learned one thing.. you may be the top of the heap today but you could very well be the goat tomorrow. I got hired to SWA in March 2000 and was waiting for a class date when I got hired by Delta and was put into a class before you guys could give me one. At the time, Delta was the better choice for a career. You guys didn't even stack up in the pay rates until the last ten years and mostly that was due to the extreme pay cuts taken by the legacy airlines.
In 2000 every one wanted to be a United pilot due to their new contract. Then in 2001 we surpassed that contract and Delta was the envy. Then 911 happenned and SWA, FEDEX and UPS became the end all be all jobs in the airlines. It's just one big cycle.
While on furlough, I flew with a lot of rEAL pilots at my furlough jobs. Some of these guys had over 2 decades with EAL before it went away. This was an airline that a lot of people aspired to be hired to. I just showed that even the best can disappear.
Remember these:
Eastern Airline
Braniff
Trans World Airlines
Pan Am
As a ground employee for SWA I watched Braniff operations everyday and was not surprised when they went down. I will actually say some of the issues they had 30 years ago are creeping into SWA ops.
I bailed from Pan Am in 1990 and again was not surprised of their demise. It happened a little earlier than I thought (right before Christmas '91) thanks to a 25 million dollar loan that DAL failed to come thru on. I would agree with many that PAA would have failed anyway with or without the funding.
I will be the first to say that while I am a fan of SWA it has some issues that need to be fixed. The luster for me has been tarnished a bit. Lately I have been saying we seem to make money in spite of ourselves.
How long can we do that?The Oscar
12-24-2013, 09:46 AM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
You really have absolutely no clue what you are talking about! The circling black helicopters must make it hard for you to concentrate. But your belief that SWAPA signed off on no international override as some form of payoff is absolutely ludicrous and impossible!
SIDE LETTER 12: ETOPS AND NEAR INTERNATIONAL FLYING
June 18, 2012 was signed WELL after SIDE LETTER 10: COMPLETE INTEGRATION OF AIRTRAN PILOTS INTO SOUTHWEST AIRLINES OPERATION September 22, 2011.
Did this "behind closed doors handshake" deal happen with all 6000 pilots that voted on this side letter? It must have been a really big room! Was this room also a time machine?
If you had any clue you would know that the reason SL 12 passed was mainly due to an absolutely huge gain on SCOPE PROTECTION. SL 12 included this provision:
4. Near International/Trans-Border Codeshare
a. Near International/Trans-Border Codeshare will be defined exclusively as Volaris Codeshare flights that include a trans-border segment between Mexico and a SWA city in the continental United States.
b. The Company will not engage in Near International/Trans-Border Codeshare with any carrier other than Volaris.
If you had any clue you would also understand that SL 12 was directly tied to SL 14 which included a 15% red-eye premium and established that a red-eye duty period that transited two calender days would trigger average daily guarantee on the second day.
SIDE LETTER 12: ETOPS AND NEAR INTERNATIONAL FLYING
June 18, 2012 was signed WELL after SIDE LETTER 10: COMPLETE INTEGRATION OF AIRTRAN PILOTS INTO SOUTHWEST AIRLINES OPERATION September 22, 2011.
Did this "behind closed doors handshake" deal happen with all 6000 pilots that voted on this side letter? It must have been a really big room! Was this room also a time machine?
If you had any clue you would know that the reason SL 12 passed was mainly due to an absolutely huge gain on SCOPE PROTECTION. SL 12 included this provision:
4. Near International/Trans-Border Codeshare
a. Near International/Trans-Border Codeshare will be defined exclusively as Volaris Codeshare flights that include a trans-border segment between Mexico and a SWA city in the continental United States.
b. The Company will not engage in Near International/Trans-Border Codeshare with any carrier other than Volaris.
If you had any clue you would also understand that SL 12 was directly tied to SL 14 which included a 15% red-eye premium and established that a red-eye duty period that transited two calender days would trigger average daily guarantee on the second day.
Negotiations happened. But when it looked like the process agreement timeline might drag out to the mediation/arbitration stage, that's when management stepped in. Why? Because SWAPA was scared of arbitration. They knew a truly fair and equitable integration would very likely be something close to relative seniority adjusted for higher SW attrition. To avoid that possibility, SWAPA went running to management for help. In exchange for Gary K making a few scary public comments about non-integration and presenting ALPA with a take it or leave it offer, management got SWAPA to agree to nothing additional to operate the -800's, nothing additional to fly international, etc... AT was used as a pawn and SWAPA and management used backroom deals to steal the AirTran pilots seniority and every single captain seat. It's really that simple.
12-24-2013, 09:56 AM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
This is a question I asked you guys a lot during the SLI process:
If you guys are going to be flying the same aircraft for the same pay, why wouldn't straight relative seniority be a good place to start?
It wouldn't have been where the list ended up, but I think that's where the arbitrator would have started.
12-24-2013, 10:06 AM
#57
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Oscar,
This is a question I asked you guys a lot during the SLI process:
If you guys are going to be flying the same aircraft for the same pay, why wouldn't straight relative seniority be a good place to start?
It wouldn't have been where the list ended up, but I think that's where the arbitrator would have started.
This is a question I asked you guys a lot during the SLI process:
If you guys are going to be flying the same aircraft for the same pay, why wouldn't straight relative seniority be a good place to start?
It wouldn't have been where the list ended up, but I think that's where the arbitrator would have started.
Ding. popcorn's done.
12-24-2013, 10:33 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 677
Do a search. This topic was discussed ad-nauseam a few years ago, and if you STILL don't get why straight relative seniority was a complete non-starter from SWAPA's perspective, try to imagine Delta buying Atlas Air and using straight relative seniority by equipment and seat. Let me know how their 5 year B744 captains would work out for you.
12-24-2013, 10:52 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Do a search. This topic was discussed ad-nauseam a few years ago, and if you STILL don't get why straight relative seniority was a complete non-starter from SWAPA's perspective, try to imagine Delta buying Atlas Air and using straight relative seniority by equipment and seat. Let me know how their 5 year B744 captains would work out for you.
I spent 3 years in law school doing "a search," so you can lose the attitude. I'm trying to give you a little insight into how arbitrators -- who are mostly lawyers -- look at things.
I was very much a part of the discussion a few years ago and while I agreed that it was discussed ad nauseam, I will tell you that the question was never answered.
If you don't have anything to add besides a "how would that work out for you?" argument, keep moving on & merry Christmas.
12-25-2013, 06:56 PM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: B737/Capt
Posts: 998
Oscar,
This is a question I asked you guys a lot during the SLI process:
If you guys are going to be flying the same aircraft for the same pay, why wouldn't straight relative seniority be a good place to start?
It wouldn't have been where the list ended up, but I think that's where the arbitrator would have started.
This is a question I asked you guys a lot during the SLI process:
If you guys are going to be flying the same aircraft for the same pay, why wouldn't straight relative seniority be a good place to start?
It wouldn't have been where the list ended up, but I think that's where the arbitrator would have started.
Oscar
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