Transition Award 13-9
09-03-2013, 07:33 PM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: Phoenix
Posts: 732
The max rate used to be $152.50/hr before we got our new contract. That was for a 12 year Cptn. With the new contract, come December the 12 year AT Cptn scale will be $175/hr and I believe the 15 year pay will be $187/hr (someone correct me if I'm wrong on the last part.
Certainly the AVERAGE SW pilot gets paid more TFP on average per month than the average AT pilot gets paid hours BUT, SW TFP rates are significantly lower than AT hourly rates and that is where the paycut comes in.
To insinuate that this whole screw job hasn't been a paycut for our downgrading Cptns is as ridiculous as saying that the pain is "shared" on both sides of the fence.
Certainly the AVERAGE SW pilot gets paid more TFP on average per month than the average AT pilot gets paid hours BUT, SW TFP rates are significantly lower than AT hourly rates and that is where the paycut comes in.
To insinuate that this whole screw job hasn't been a paycut for our downgrading Cptns is as ridiculous as saying that the pain is "shared" on both sides of the fence.
09-03-2013, 08:15 PM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 752
It was in an August email to the ATN pilot group from the Secretary-Treasurer.
Data collected from pilots who had been on the SWA side for one full year were asked to provide W-2 information for the year prior to the transition and the full year after the transition.
Data collected from pilots who had been on the SWA side for one full year were asked to provide W-2 information for the year prior to the transition and the full year after the transition.
09-03-2013, 08:15 PM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 677
Where do you morons come up with this crap? Add about $30 to that then do your math.
Pay cut? No problem. The math doesn't lie.
Let's see: $174 * 75 * 12 = $156,600
$133 * 87 * 12 = $138,852
This is the minimum. And that's assuming anyone works for 75 hours---which they didn't until recently.
At 81.5 hours of flying the difference is----ready?----$30,000. Real dollars. Real pay cut for Airtran captains.
Pay cut? No problem. The math doesn't lie.
Let's see: $174 * 75 * 12 = $156,600
$133 * 87 * 12 = $138,852
This is the minimum. And that's assuming anyone works for 75 hours---which they didn't until recently.
At 81.5 hours of flying the difference is----ready?----$30,000. Real dollars. Real pay cut for Airtran captains.
Similarly, your Sec-Tres crying about the $30K cut ATN captains are going to take makes no allowances for the vastly different open time and work rules those transitioning captains will find when they are on the SWA side. Laramie, I don't know where you or your Sec-Tres get a monthly average of 87 TFP for SWA FOs. My guess is a direct lift from one of our recent bid packs, 'cause that's about what our original bid lines average when first awarded, but the average SWA pilot actually earns about 105 TFP monthly. Plug that into your equation and tell me again how much the pay cut is?
So why the discrepancy? Leaner staffing (than ATN); better rigs, reroute language, and more productive trips (than ATN), plus more Premium Open Time (than ATN)...just to name a few. With the rock-star domicile seniority that many of your captains will enjoy as they arrive at SWA as senior FOs, they will be in the strata that can easily pull in 130+ TFP each month (I'm really laughing at your "paycut" now 
)Bottom line? Your Sec-Tres is not dealing in real world numbers in spite of his "reach out" campaign. He's either coincidentally talking only to former ATN pilots who haven't been on the SWA side long enough to become familiar with & fully take advantage of the new rules. Or, he is intentionally low-balling to support an agenda. I'm sure it must be the former....
P.S. Want more proof? When was the last time you heard here (or on any other public airline forum for that matter) from any former ATN pilot crying about a paycut WHO HAS ACTUALLY CROSSED OVER? I haven't. The loudest complainers are all still on the ATN side and aren't about to let the facts get in their way (looking at you W-M, and a few others).
09-03-2013, 09:14 PM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2011
Posts: 166
ALPA's survey must have suffered from self-selection bias -- i.e. the only people who bothered to respond were the ones who were ****ed off about making less money. I met a transitioned senior AT guy in the lounge the other day that made 135TFP in Aug while flying 79 block hours which works out to close to $18,000 for the month at a rate of $227/hr (and no, he wasn't on vacation)-- where's the pay cut?
As far as the post-constructive notice contract goes--it has step pay raises out to 1 Dec 2014. So how does a dying airline find a revenue stream to support pay raises to it's pilot group while it is imploding it's route structure and fleet?
As far as the post-constructive notice contract goes--it has step pay raises out to 1 Dec 2014. So how does a dying airline find a revenue stream to support pay raises to it's pilot group while it is imploding it's route structure and fleet?
09-03-2013, 09:16 PM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Posts: 659
Matthewamel,
Can you pm that? Was the 30k average or outliers. Did some make more than the had on the AT side? I don't doubt that some are making less, it just seems like the majority should make more. Now, the transistion bid is another story...
Can you pm that? Was the 30k average or outliers. Did some make more than the had on the AT side? I don't doubt that some are making less, it just seems like the majority should make more. Now, the transistion bid is another story...
09-03-2013, 09:58 PM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2005
Position: B737 Captain
Posts: 323
Copied with permission from a SWA forum;
First, thank you for coming on here. We (all of us) need to stick together, because we didn’t ask for this. But when we read stuff coming out that AT Captains are loosing $30k plus per year, I just shake my head.
Let’s compare the two (pre-announcement contracts). I’ll compare apples to apples the best I can, that is the minimum compensation for a regular line holder TOFB & Hours pay (which is the only commodity we have as pilots). I’ll compare a 12yr AT CA vs. 12yr SWA FO “Total” compensation on a 30-day month.
I won’t even compare the intangibles like the stronger company, additional domiciles, 98% strike vote, furlough history (sorry I don’t remember if you had guys on furlough), CDOs, Redeyes, Hostile work environment, Rig guarantees / schedule line guarantees, Section 1 issues (like the Skywest Codeshare Agreement that was just starting to take off [granted we were fighting the WestJet / Volaris Near-International CS at the time too), … or some of the more tangibles like (the extra 5.25 “units” of) vacation pay & VO pay drop pay & (what was a great) medical plan - we were paying $150/ month per family. Nor will I compare the IMMENSE lifetime compensation FAT FOs realized!
What I found below is surprising actually, I personally wasn’t sure what to expect:
AAI: 12 yr CA
$152.57 * 75 hours = $11,442.75 ($137,313 / yr)
Minimum 12 days off
No 401k match ($0)
10.5% b-fund ($14,417.87 / yr)
Total minimum: $151,730
SWA: 12 yr FO
$132.81 * 87 = $11,554.47 ($138,653.64 / yr)
Minimum 15 days off
9.3% 401k match ($12,894.79 / yr )
Total Minimum: $151,548
You are correct; it is a wash wrt to compensation - when you consider contractual minimum line averages. However, the AT Captain worked 3 days more! We both know neither carrier wrote a year’s worth of monthly line minimums.
So if we wanted to play the mental masturbation game and compare W2s (which I think is corny), I happen to have the LAS Mar ’10 lines data:
LAS Avg pay was 93 tfp for 17.93 days off (avg), that’s 13 days of work for 93 * $132.81 = $12,531.33. I don’t know AT’s data, can you provide?
Also, our average line pay system wide was 110 tfp (it’s come down these last few years). So the “average” compensation of a 12yr SWA FO (if we had any then) would have been $191,612.97 annually! (110*132.81*12*1.093)
You’ll have to fill me in with your line averages at the time, but if I compare the two, you would either be working your tail off, or have quite a bit of premium available.
Here’s the Algebra: (You’ll have to provide the other side of the equation)
$191,612 (total SWA 12yrFO compensation) = $173, 405 (equivalent AT compensation, more or less minus the B-fund match).
$173,405 / $152.57 = 1136.53 hours per year, just to match the average SWA FO. You would either have considerable premium or working 94.71 hours per month, every month of the year (which if you’ve ever done that SUCKS, even for a single month).
Considering your minimum pay per day was 4hrs, that’s 23 days work per month, for 12 months.
Can you provide actual data to refute the above?
Thank you,
MW
PS you can sense our (mid -junior FO) frustration considering what we got out of this deal. Absolutely nothing! And some of us willingly left AT (as a captain) to come to SWA on probation, 1st yr pay, no longevity raises , had to interview again, ... we got nothing. Well except for hundreds of FAT "younger" guys in front of us. Now add in the majority of your fleet going away, ... reading that **** from ALPA ****es us off.
Let’s compare the two (pre-announcement contracts). I’ll compare apples to apples the best I can, that is the minimum compensation for a regular line holder TOFB & Hours pay (which is the only commodity we have as pilots). I’ll compare a 12yr AT CA vs. 12yr SWA FO “Total” compensation on a 30-day month.
I won’t even compare the intangibles like the stronger company, additional domiciles, 98% strike vote, furlough history (sorry I don’t remember if you had guys on furlough), CDOs, Redeyes, Hostile work environment, Rig guarantees / schedule line guarantees, Section 1 issues (like the Skywest Codeshare Agreement that was just starting to take off [granted we were fighting the WestJet / Volaris Near-International CS at the time too), … or some of the more tangibles like (the extra 5.25 “units” of) vacation pay & VO pay drop pay & (what was a great) medical plan - we were paying $150/ month per family. Nor will I compare the IMMENSE lifetime compensation FAT FOs realized!
What I found below is surprising actually, I personally wasn’t sure what to expect:
AAI: 12 yr CA
$152.57 * 75 hours = $11,442.75 ($137,313 / yr)
Minimum 12 days off
No 401k match ($0)
10.5% b-fund ($14,417.87 / yr)
Total minimum: $151,730
SWA: 12 yr FO
$132.81 * 87 = $11,554.47 ($138,653.64 / yr)
Minimum 15 days off
9.3% 401k match ($12,894.79 / yr )
Total Minimum: $151,548
You are correct; it is a wash wrt to compensation - when you consider contractual minimum line averages. However, the AT Captain worked 3 days more! We both know neither carrier wrote a year’s worth of monthly line minimums.
So if we wanted to play the mental masturbation game and compare W2s (which I think is corny), I happen to have the LAS Mar ’10 lines data:
LAS Avg pay was 93 tfp for 17.93 days off (avg), that’s 13 days of work for 93 * $132.81 = $12,531.33. I don’t know AT’s data, can you provide?
Also, our average line pay system wide was 110 tfp (it’s come down these last few years). So the “average” compensation of a 12yr SWA FO (if we had any then) would have been $191,612.97 annually! (110*132.81*12*1.093)
You’ll have to fill me in with your line averages at the time, but if I compare the two, you would either be working your tail off, or have quite a bit of premium available.
Here’s the Algebra: (You’ll have to provide the other side of the equation)
$191,612 (total SWA 12yrFO compensation) = $173, 405 (equivalent AT compensation, more or less minus the B-fund match).
$173,405 / $152.57 = 1136.53 hours per year, just to match the average SWA FO. You would either have considerable premium or working 94.71 hours per month, every month of the year (which if you’ve ever done that SUCKS, even for a single month).
Considering your minimum pay per day was 4hrs, that’s 23 days work per month, for 12 months.
Can you provide actual data to refute the above?
Thank you,
MW
PS you can sense our (mid -junior FO) frustration considering what we got out of this deal. Absolutely nothing! And some of us willingly left AT (as a captain) to come to SWA on probation, 1st yr pay, no longevity raises , had to interview again, ... we got nothing. Well except for hundreds of FAT "younger" guys in front of us. Now add in the majority of your fleet going away, ... reading that **** from ALPA ****es us off.
09-04-2013, 12:38 AM
#58
Logbook...
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 416
I am.
Jesus. Hyperbole much?
Your arguments would carry much more weight without all the drama.
I agree, SWA has reneged on some of the agreements to the detriment of those of us on both sides.
And believe it or not, we're not happy either.
Like my good friend who gave up his 10 year tenure at AT and Captain seat 1 year before the acquisition. He willingly started over at the bottom of the list at SWA - after buying his type (just like everyone else did), at first year pay - to be ultimately be placed behind FO's still at AT.
One of many examples.
Yea, this sucks for us too.
Jesus. Hyperbole much?
Your arguments would carry much more weight without all the drama.
I agree, SWA has reneged on some of the agreements to the detriment of those of us on both sides.
And believe it or not, we're not happy either.
Like my good friend who gave up his 10 year tenure at AT and Captain seat 1 year before the acquisition. He willingly started over at the bottom of the list at SWA - after buying his type (just like everyone else did), at first year pay - to be ultimately be placed behind FO's still at AT.
One of many examples.
Yea, this sucks for us too.
I'm sure your good friend was a 2008 hire, right? So he can look at it this way: He arrived at his desired career destination SEVEN years before he would've if he had held on bitterly at the Tran.
Anyway, your gross exaggeration in a post in which you "Jesus'd" someone's hyperbole is funny.
09-04-2013, 09:21 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 127
4th Level-
That whole post goes out the window, since it is based on our 2001 Contract, which was amenable in 2005.
No one at AirTran, and I do mean NO ONE will buy an argument based upon 2001 numbers. We had previously REJECTED a TA that had pay rates very close to what we eventually signed after the merger announcement.
Please be sure to read that again, as a lot of SWA people seem to think we got our current rates because of the merger. It ain't so, we rejected those rates a long time ago, and were holding out for better rates.
Back to the reality of AirTran Captain pay versus SWA FO pay- it ain;t even close. You can find extreme numbers in either case, but for the vast majority of our transitioned Captains, they have lost $20K -$30K.
Also, SWA pilots love to say their trips are more productive, and they are- IF you live in base. If you don't, the AirTran trips were commutable on both ends, which, in my book, makes them more productive AND more desirable.
AirTran trip trades offer much better flexibility, since you can actually "drop" a trip altogether, up to 24 hours before report time (within certain parameters). It is not necessary to get someone else to take it.
Oh, our Reserve system also has Long Call (24 hour call out) and a system where Pilots can choose to be called first, or last, and view where they are in the "que". I don't believe SWA has that system for Reserves.
Max
That whole post goes out the window, since it is based on our 2001 Contract, which was amenable in 2005.
No one at AirTran, and I do mean NO ONE will buy an argument based upon 2001 numbers. We had previously REJECTED a TA that had pay rates very close to what we eventually signed after the merger announcement.
Please be sure to read that again, as a lot of SWA people seem to think we got our current rates because of the merger. It ain't so, we rejected those rates a long time ago, and were holding out for better rates.
Back to the reality of AirTran Captain pay versus SWA FO pay- it ain;t even close. You can find extreme numbers in either case, but for the vast majority of our transitioned Captains, they have lost $20K -$30K.
Also, SWA pilots love to say their trips are more productive, and they are- IF you live in base. If you don't, the AirTran trips were commutable on both ends, which, in my book, makes them more productive AND more desirable.
AirTran trip trades offer much better flexibility, since you can actually "drop" a trip altogether, up to 24 hours before report time (within certain parameters). It is not necessary to get someone else to take it.
Oh, our Reserve system also has Long Call (24 hour call out) and a system where Pilots can choose to be called first, or last, and view where they are in the "que". I don't believe SWA has that system for Reserves.
Max
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