SWA to open ATL Base
01-14-2013, 04:43 PM
#161
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 23
Wonder why WN mgmt signed off on the process agreement. If you believe this was never going to arbitration, you can appreciate the Tranny's angst for WN mgmt's word or anything they sign.
01-14-2013, 06:26 PM
#162
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: 737 F.O.
Posts: 180
Originally Posted by alfaromeo;
The restriction from Airtran pilots holding Captain seats is the most ridiculous, outrageous result of this extortion. You would never have won that in arbitration in a million years.
Your union was afraid of arbitration, they stated that time after time, and your management did your dirty work for you. Another example of the worst of how pilots can treat other pilots.
Your union was afraid of arbitration, they stated that time after time, and your management did your dirty work for you. Another example of the worst of how pilots can treat other pilots.
The Process Agreement allowed for multiple scenarios which might lead to an agreement. However it was specifically stated that the preferred outcome would involve a deal voted on by both sides outside of arbitration.
Last edited by CRJAV8OR; 01-14-2013 at 06:47 PM.
01-14-2013, 06:30 PM
#163
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Posts: 659
Alfa,
is one of the things that was wrong with this agreement, imo. I also don't think that GK should have gotten away with separate pay. There are other issues for SWAPA pilots that weren't addressed. That being said, when GK felt his merger being threatened by the lack of progress, he forced the issue. ALPA strategy failed to consider the importance of this.
The restriction from Airtran pilots holding Captain seats is the most ridiculous, outrageous result of this extortion. You would never have won that in arbitration in a million years.
01-15-2013, 06:46 AM
#164
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,803
you guys are really hypocritical. Swapa was afraid of a true fair and equitable integration and cried non stop about the prospect of arbitration. Your management stepped in and extorted compliance from the airtran pilots by threatening to shut them down and take all their airplanes. Now you try to shift blame to the airtran management because they sold the company.
It wouldn't make it better but at least it would be honest to say that you sided with swa management to steal the airtran rights away, now live with it. You continue to try to pretend that none of that extortion ever happened.
An arbitration would have most likely resulted in a block of swa pilots alone at the top of the list and a block of airtran pilots at the bottom of the list. Those blocks would have been much smaller than the forced agreement. Finally, the fence would have protected the airtran captains in their seats for five years or so. The restriction from airtran pilots holding captain seats is the most ridiculous, outrageous result of this extortion. You would never have won that in arbitration in a million years.
Again, just admit that your management gave you advantage over the airtran pilots and you stole their rights away. Don't sit here and pretend like that never happened. Your union was afraid of arbitration, they stated that time after time, and your management did your dirty work for you. Another example of the worst of how pilots can treat other pilots.
It wouldn't make it better but at least it would be honest to say that you sided with swa management to steal the airtran rights away, now live with it. You continue to try to pretend that none of that extortion ever happened.
An arbitration would have most likely resulted in a block of swa pilots alone at the top of the list and a block of airtran pilots at the bottom of the list. Those blocks would have been much smaller than the forced agreement. Finally, the fence would have protected the airtran captains in their seats for five years or so. The restriction from airtran pilots holding captain seats is the most ridiculous, outrageous result of this extortion. You would never have won that in arbitration in a million years.
Again, just admit that your management gave you advantage over the airtran pilots and you stole their rights away. Don't sit here and pretend like that never happened. Your union was afraid of arbitration, they stated that time after time, and your management did your dirty work for you. Another example of the worst of how pilots can treat other pilots.
01-15-2013, 07:18 AM
#165
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Alfa,
is one of the things that was wrong with this agreement, imo. I also don't think that GK should have gotten away with separate pay. There are other issues for SWAPA pilots that weren't addressed. That being said, when GK felt his merger being threatened by the lack of progress, he forced the issue. ALPA strategy failed to consider the importance of this.
is one of the things that was wrong with this agreement, imo. I also don't think that GK should have gotten away with separate pay. There are other issues for SWAPA pilots that weren't addressed. That being said, when GK felt his merger being threatened by the lack of progress, he forced the issue. ALPA strategy failed to consider the importance of this.
1. Create a holding company for "merged" company.
2. Craft a take-it-or-leave-it deal for the new folks.
3. If they sign, great. If not, slowly take all the assets that you wanted in the first place and dissolve the merged company into oblivion.
It was pure genius.
And from all the talk that I have heard since this all went down, I don't think he felt the merger was in danger, but rather that he believed if you throw money at people that automatically makes it a good deal. I think he was probably shocked when the AirTran guys didn't dive on the first grenade, and that gave way to rage which he then took out on them.
01-15-2013, 07:19 AM
#166
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,803
Just for the record I am not an Airtran pilot. I have been involved in three different seniority arbitrations at a close level. What you guys did to the Airtran pilots was pilot behavior at its worst. It is easy for you to blow it off because you are the recipient of the ill gotten gains, it might be tougher to shrug it off if you were the one with a gun to his head.
The mighty SWAPA pilots had to chance to show the world their superiority in a fair and equitable setting and instead chose to get your management to be your muscle man and take their rights away. Everyone else in the industry recognizes what you did to them. It was shameful and as a group you should be ashamed.
The mighty SWAPA pilots had to chance to show the world their superiority in a fair and equitable setting and instead chose to get your management to be your muscle man and take their rights away. Everyone else in the industry recognizes what you did to them. It was shameful and as a group you should be ashamed.
Keep telling us to "Get over it" SWAPA pilots. That's a lot easier to do with an average 8% relative seniority GAIN than it is for us to actually do with an average 22% relative seniority LOSS (not to mention most of our Cptn seats).
Frankly, it's downright insulting to see an SWA pilot telling us to "get over it". The nerve!
01-15-2013, 07:30 AM
#167
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Posts: 112
Stealing and extortion is illegal. You can believe what you will but nothing illegal was performed in this SLI. But if I am wrong then ALPA should be gunning with their resources to prove otherwise.
You may not have liked the outcome but it was all fair. It is obvious there are truths from the AT side that they can not admit which is hypocritical in it self.
You are demanding we admit to things that are plainly not true. We were not afraid of arbitration. We just weighed on what we knew vs what we didn't. We could have just as likely done better in arbitration than AT. We will never know now, will we. And guessing its outcome is a fools game at best.
You put all the blame with SWA management, SWAPA, and SWA pilots. You can blame the pilots all you want but we had ZERO input into this process except for the vote. As you are, we are just pawns in this mess. But yet you put no blame on the precise people that did this to you. The ones that sold you out. Now THAT is hypocritical.
You need to be writing nasty letters everyday to your former management and MEC telling them your emotional mis-truths instead of taking it to your future co-workers who absolutely, clearly like yourself, were looking out after their own best interests. And we didn't want this either. Still don't. But as was said earlier we are all pawns in this game and we accept what is and not what could have been.
The choice is all of ours: "Get busy living, or get busy dying"
You may not have liked the outcome but it was all fair. It is obvious there are truths from the AT side that they can not admit which is hypocritical in it self.
You are demanding we admit to things that are plainly not true. We were not afraid of arbitration. We just weighed on what we knew vs what we didn't. We could have just as likely done better in arbitration than AT. We will never know now, will we. And guessing its outcome is a fools game at best.
You put all the blame with SWA management, SWAPA, and SWA pilots. You can blame the pilots all you want but we had ZERO input into this process except for the vote. As you are, we are just pawns in this mess. But yet you put no blame on the precise people that did this to you. The ones that sold you out. Now THAT is hypocritical.
You need to be writing nasty letters everyday to your former management and MEC telling them your emotional mis-truths instead of taking it to your future co-workers who absolutely, clearly like yourself, were looking out after their own best interests. And we didn't want this either. Still don't. But as was said earlier we are all pawns in this game and we accept what is and not what could have been.
The choice is all of ours: "Get busy living, or get busy dying"
01-15-2013, 07:36 AM
#168
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Posts: 112
. That's a lot easier to do with an average 8% relative seniority GAIN than it is for us to actually do with an average 22% relative seniority LOSS (not to mention most of our Cptn seats).
Frankly, it's downright insulting to see an SWA pilot telling us to "get over it". The nerve!
Frankly, it's downright insulting to see an SWA pilot telling us to "get over it". The nerve!
And you need to revise the average seniority gain of 8% for the SWA pilots. That was the high at some point but the low was 0%.
01-15-2013, 07:43 AM
#169
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 478
Just for the record I am not an Airtran pilot. I have been involved in three different seniority arbitrations at a close level. What you guys did to the Airtran pilots was pilot behavior at its worst. It is easy for you to blow it off because you are the recipient of the ill gotten gains, it might be tougher to shrug it off if you were the one with a gun to his head.
The mighty SWAPA pilots had to chance to show the world their superiority in a fair and equitable setting and instead chose to get your management to be your muscle man and take their rights away. Everyone else in the industry recognizes what you did to them. It was shameful and as a group you should be ashamed.
The mighty SWAPA pilots had to chance to show the world their superiority in a fair and equitable setting and instead chose to get your management to be your muscle man and take their rights away. Everyone else in the industry recognizes what you did to them. It was shameful and as a group you should be ashamed.
01-15-2013, 07:47 AM
#170
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Posts: 112
SWAPA agreed to this but........
AirTran pilots suing their Union, here is the link to the filing...
Document 1 :: Jamison et al v. Air Line Pilots Association, International et al :: 1:2012cv00544 :: Georgia Northern District Court :: US Federal District Courts Cases :: Justia
Here are some of the Bullet Points:
Among the economic gains recognized by the Merger Committee members were enormous pay increases, averaging about $72,000 per year for captains and about $48,000 per year for first officers, with such pay increases to begin by April 2012. For some pilots, their pay would be nearly doubled.
Other advantageous features of the seniority integration agreement and transition agreement were:
Substantial furlough protection, such that one Southwest pilot would be furloughed for each AirTran pilot furloughed, despite the fact that there were a large number of AirTran first officers at the bottom of the proposed merged seniority list;
The Atlanta base would be protected for another nine years, permitting AirTran pilots the stability of remaining at their base and, thus, not disrupting their families' lives;
AirTran captains would be afforded priority as to all captain vacancies at the Atlanta base until September 2020;
The Atlanta base would be staffed in larger numbers than more typical Southwest domiciles;
A large number (851) of AirTran capatain seats would be protected;
AirTran pilots would be protected against being displaced for positions by more senior Southwest pilots.
Document 1 :: Jamison et al v. Air Line Pilots Association, International et al :: 1:2012cv00544 :: Georgia Northern District Court :: US Federal District Courts Cases :: Justia
Here are some of the Bullet Points:
Among the economic gains recognized by the Merger Committee members were enormous pay increases, averaging about $72,000 per year for captains and about $48,000 per year for first officers, with such pay increases to begin by April 2012. For some pilots, their pay would be nearly doubled.
Other advantageous features of the seniority integration agreement and transition agreement were:
Substantial furlough protection, such that one Southwest pilot would be furloughed for each AirTran pilot furloughed, despite the fact that there were a large number of AirTran first officers at the bottom of the proposed merged seniority list;
The Atlanta base would be protected for another nine years, permitting AirTran pilots the stability of remaining at their base and, thus, not disrupting their families' lives;
AirTran captains would be afforded priority as to all captain vacancies at the Atlanta base until September 2020;
The Atlanta base would be staffed in larger numbers than more typical Southwest domiciles;
A large number (851) of AirTran capatain seats would be protected;
AirTran pilots would be protected against being displaced for positions by more senior Southwest pilots.
What are we suppose to admit to??
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