ClipperJet

It took a while to research, but I think your math might be a bit off. Using only straight pay-- no premium, no vacation, training, etc. Based on the Chart in the Current ATN CBA (Section 4.C.1) , a 10-year Captain (Step 11) as of 1/1/13 will make $170.65/hr. The monthly guarantee is 70 hours. (Section 4.O.4 says 70. I couldn’t find a 76 reference anywhere) A 10-year SWA FO is paid $131.42 a "trip."

10 yr ATN CA: 70 x $170.65= $11,946
10 yr SWA FO: 89 x 131.42 = $11,696

Assuming neither only flies only the minimum guarantee, lets assume that the ATN CA flies a reasonable line. (Honestly, I don't know what an "average" ATN CA line looks like. Since no one will say, I’ll use 76 hours. ) The SWA FO flies a reasonable, “easy” schedule of 100 "trips" per month.

ATN CA: 76 x 170.65 = $12,969
SWA FO: 100 x 131.42 = $13,142.

What if an ATN CA flew 1000 hrs per year? (1000 hrs /12=83)

ATN CA: 83 x 170.65 = $14,164
SWA FO: 100 x 131.42 = $13,142.

The SWA FO will have to fly 108 "trips" at straight pay to break even with the ATN CA who is theoretically maxed out. 108 is not hard to do…even as a commuter. Many folks fly in the neighborhood of 120 "trips," but I don't know if that includes significant flying at premium pay, which invalidates a comparison.

Bottom line: I think the real, “in your bank account” pay is pretty similar, if not a slight advantage to the SWA FO.

SherpaLifter

There are a lot of questions about who transitions when as a result of the B717 going to Delta. The union apparently has heard so many people are "angry as hornets" over yet another gut punch from SWA*, that they robo called everyone at home telling them to remain focused on a safe flying operation and not to be distracted in the cockpit by the announcement. In addition, AT ALPA will have people from the Critical Incident Response Program in the crew lounge in the coming days.

In the mean time, it looks like most AirTran FO's will continue to be on the B scale all the way to 1 Jan 2015, another 2.5 years, while they watch the quality of the lines continue to decline. Then they are looking forward to spending the first 20 years at SWA as FO's before they upgrade (if they are lucky enough to have 20 years left). But at least they have the SWA culture to look forward to.

To recap, you now have an entire airline of 1600 pilots who don't have answers as to when they will transition or what happens to the transition bid. In reality, the SWA ATL base probably disappeared with the announcement and nearly every AirTran pilot will be forced to commute.

*No one thinks the decision to sublease the B717 to Delta is a bad business decision, it's just that the announcement by SWA made no mention of the major, major impact of this decision on the AirTran pilot group. Either GK doesn't realize the scope of the problem or worse, he doesn't care. Even the management types they sent to ATL the day after the announcement admitted they had no answers. They did say that the are realizing that the biggest burden of the merger is being borne by the AirTran pilots. Ya think?

ClipperJet

How does accelerating the transition to SWA hurt the FOs? Did the ATN 717 FO go senior or junior on the transistion bid?

Maybe. But making ATN CA pay for that 20 years will take some of the sting out it...

How so? Where has anyone said the operations at ATL will be cut? No doubt, a few SWA pilots will want to be based in ATL and will bump an ATN pilot out. Also, an ATN pilot will want to be based in HOU and force a SWA pilot to commute. Same with BWI, and MCO.

MatthewAMEL

Clipper,

Not being aware of the realities the ATN guys are dealing with is acceptable the 1st time. Continued postings after multiple people have demonstrated otherwise is disingenuous at best, deceptive at worst.

The transition to SWAPA has not been accelerated by the 717 announcement. There will still be 36 717s flying under the ATN brand AFTER the 1/1/2015 date. Before the announcement was made, there were 0. In case you don't understand what that means, there will still be ~450 ATN pilots who have not 'crossed the fence' in 2015.

'Ranking' pay would equal the following:

1 - SWA CA
2- ATN CA
3 - SWA FO
4 - ATN FO

As of today, ALL ATN pilots will be in group 3 when they 'cross the fence'. No one is 'making ATN CA pay' for 20 years.

The announced domiciles for the 717 were ATL and TPA. There are no 737 domiciles at either of those locations. Currently, THERE IS NO ATL BASE. When guys are awarded their Transition Bid, ATL is NOT an option. Unless, of course, you can show me the 737 ATL domicile announcement.

At least you got one thing right: Guys like myself (6 yr 717 FO) are being forced from my equipment and domicile (MCO) with no idea when I will be able to hold it.

shoelu

It may not have accelerated anything, but come 2015, there will be no fence to cross. We will all be SWA pilots at that time and ALL on the SWA CBA.

"AirTran pilots are covered by the Southwest/SWAPA CBA upon entering training for service as Southwest pilots. AirTran pilots who have not entered training for service as Southwest pilots by January 1, 2015 will be covered by the SWAPA-Southwest CBA on January 1, 2015."

MatthewAMEL

Make sure to tell SWA that. It would be great to skip the 60 days of training in DAL and get my SWA badge automatically on 1/1/15.

Are you saying that's what is going to happen?

SWAPA isn't going to represent 717 pilots flying the 'a'.

shoelu

I can't tell you what will happen, only what is in the agreement we all voted on. It seems to me that all AT pilots will be on the SWAPA CBA by 2015. What does flying the 'a' mean?

MatthewAMEL

The 717 will never operate for SWA. The SWA CP was in ATL this week and told us in RGS that no 717 will see SWA paint. That's not 2nd hand. I was there.

Steve Chase has said only pilots flying SWA colors will be represented by SWAPA.

SherpaLifter

Matthew answered most of the questions. Yes, per the agreements we will all be on SWA pay by 1 Jan 2015, but that's a long way off! In the meantime, those of us FO's on the 737 are under the same operating certificate, working for the the same parent company, and doing all the international flying but getting paid significantly less (B scale). AirTran will keep about 30 737's to fly international routes until SWA can get there act together to take over. That may or may not be before 1 Jan 2015 (I certainly hope it is!).

If you were to ask me am I better off today then on May 2nd, 2011 (the day we were "acquired") I would have to say NO, and here's why:

1. My take home pay dropped 10% as of 1 Jan because I now have to contribute to my 401K to get the company match. The match was automatic before. 10% less take home pay now and declining until I transition.
2. Unless they announce an Atlanta 737 base, the entire pilot group will be forced to commute (unless they live in a SWA domicile they can hold after they transition). I thought I was done commuting years ago. (I wouldn't mind moving from the ATL but most of us are underwater on our houses and couldn't sell even if we wanted to).
3. My near term future will have ever decreasing line quality and quantity as airplanes transition, dragging down my QOL and pay even further.
4. The SWA culture, as applied to AirTran pilots by GK and company, has been a HUGE, HUGE disappointment. A "FAIL" of epic proportions.
5. The more we are briefed on how SWA operates (outdated technology, inability to embrace technology in the cockpit, slow to change, etc.) the more worried I've become about the short and long term prospects of SWA.
6. Because of the 717 announcement, the entire transition bid has been invalidated. Many unanswered questions. Hard to plan for your future. More turmoil for the family.
7. I was going to upgrade to captain at AirTran before the "acquistion". Now I will not. Ever. (Unless the retirement age changes to age 80, but I'm not holding my breath, because then I wouldn't make it to 80)
8. My QOL will never recover before I have to retire, thanks to the seniority grab facilitated by GK and company. I will most likely be stuck flying weekends the rest of my airline life.

Having said all that, if you were to ask me does my future look brighter in the long term? I sincerely hope the answer to that question is YES. Pay will finally reach parity with SWA FO's when I transition or 1 Jan 2015, whichever comes first. All my friends at SWA are great guys and my interaction with most SWA pilots in the terminals gives me hope that the culture thing has some merit to it on a personal level, even if my faith in the corporate level culture has been destroyed.

OscartheGrouch

Sherpa,

I for one recognize what you have been dealt. I would also say that while this SLI is over, I have been an advocate for having the AT folks pay increased sooner (yesterday would be good). The looks I get when I suggest this are funny. Everyone lives in their own world and many need to think of others.

All that being said, and I am not trying to get into some argument (again), but the first offer had pay and seat protection. I know, I know, it was a POS. So says the great Whack. Perhaps your group and ours voting on the first offer would have been acceptable?

The Oscar