The question still remains
10-20-2011, 01:12 PM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 191
Blakman and Alfaromeo: Guys, we get it, you don't like what is happeneing to the AT folks. But if you think that SWAPA and the SWA pilots had anything to do with it, you are kidding yourselves. These offers came from the company, not the union or the company and the union.
GK wanted all this stuff completed months ago and got involved to speed it all up. He thought he had an agreement the first time around just to have the ALPA folks not send it to membership. Fine. As is usual, his second offer was less for the group that turned him down. (we've seen this before, most recently with our last contract, we turned down the first offer (first time in history I believe) and the next offer many people feel was worse but was taken because the third was believed to be even worse) If you think we are jumping up and down high fiving each other in private, you are oh so very wrong. There are many things we are not happy about.
So if you have an issue, please aim it not at the pilots, but at the company for sticking its nose in and deciding it couldn't wait for the unions to work it out.
If the AT folks don't like this offer, then they should vote no, many people (though probably not enough to block its passage) on our side are voting no as well.
GK wanted all this stuff completed months ago and got involved to speed it all up. He thought he had an agreement the first time around just to have the ALPA folks not send it to membership. Fine. As is usual, his second offer was less for the group that turned him down. (we've seen this before, most recently with our last contract, we turned down the first offer (first time in history I believe) and the next offer many people feel was worse but was taken because the third was believed to be even worse) If you think we are jumping up and down high fiving each other in private, you are oh so very wrong. There are many things we are not happy about.
So if you have an issue, please aim it not at the pilots, but at the company for sticking its nose in and deciding it couldn't wait for the unions to work it out.
If the AT folks don't like this offer, then they should vote no, many people (though probably not enough to block its passage) on our side are voting no as well.
10-20-2011, 01:20 PM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 270
"Dad" is in the game because he wants this done as cheaply as possible. He tried to bribe the AT guys, to make it quick and easy. They turned that offer down, so now it's getting dragged out.
"Dad" plays hardball, and he knows that the SW pilots will vote yes on anything, so appeasing them wasn't even a consideration, which is proven by a peek at SL9. I can guarantee that "Dad" won't look favorably upon the SW guys if they vote down SL10.
There is a process agreement in place, agreed to by all parties involved. It is being followed. All parties have agreed to attempt a negotiated settlement. An agreed upon, negotiated settlement has been proposed, and is being voted on. If it gets turned down, it goes to arbitration.
Up until the current vote, the rank and file pilots had no say whatsoever in how this has or is gonna go down. These are negotiations. Period. Both sides are going to do what's best for themselves, and eventually, there will be an agreement or it goes to arbitration. Both sets of union reps agreed that this was worthy of a membership vote, and it is being voted on. What's the problem?
Most of the SW guys think the SLI deal stinks too.
What makes you think the AT guys (or anyone, since the bottom guys are all SW guys) are gonna get furloughed? SW is hiring.
I didn't imply that everyone should jump for joy at the mere thought of becoming a SW pilot. I stated that the AT folks were jumping for joy when they learned of the acquisition.
I realize this may seem anecdotal, but being based in MCO, I am always running into AT folks on the bus etc.
I rode the MCO parking lot bus the night the acquisition was announced with 2 crews (pilots and FAs) worth of AT folks. Every one of them were jumping for joy over the news. It was the same story for the first few months after the announcement. I get many AT guys on my jumpseat as well, and all were thrilled about going to SW. Before the announcement, every AT person I ran into HATED working there.
Conversely, I have not run into one SW pilot that doesn't think the entire acquisition is nightmare.
A couple of morons on an anonymous internet board not withstanding, I don't get the vitriol aimed at the SW guys, especially from those who haven't even got a dog in this fight.
AR,
Denying a jumpseat to a SW pilot because you don't like the way negotiations are going? Gimme a break.
"Dad" plays hardball, and he knows that the SW pilots will vote yes on anything, so appeasing them wasn't even a consideration, which is proven by a peek at SL9. I can guarantee that "Dad" won't look favorably upon the SW guys if they vote down SL10.
There is a process agreement in place, agreed to by all parties involved. It is being followed. All parties have agreed to attempt a negotiated settlement. An agreed upon, negotiated settlement has been proposed, and is being voted on. If it gets turned down, it goes to arbitration.
Up until the current vote, the rank and file pilots had no say whatsoever in how this has or is gonna go down. These are negotiations. Period. Both sides are going to do what's best for themselves, and eventually, there will be an agreement or it goes to arbitration. Both sets of union reps agreed that this was worthy of a membership vote, and it is being voted on. What's the problem?
Most of the SW guys think the SLI deal stinks too.
What makes you think the AT guys (or anyone, since the bottom guys are all SW guys) are gonna get furloughed? SW is hiring.
I didn't imply that everyone should jump for joy at the mere thought of becoming a SW pilot. I stated that the AT folks were jumping for joy when they learned of the acquisition.
I realize this may seem anecdotal, but being based in MCO, I am always running into AT folks on the bus etc.
I rode the MCO parking lot bus the night the acquisition was announced with 2 crews (pilots and FAs) worth of AT folks. Every one of them were jumping for joy over the news. It was the same story for the first few months after the announcement. I get many AT guys on my jumpseat as well, and all were thrilled about going to SW. Before the announcement, every AT person I ran into HATED working there.
Conversely, I have not run into one SW pilot that doesn't think the entire acquisition is nightmare.
A couple of morons on an anonymous internet board not withstanding, I don't get the vitriol aimed at the SW guys, especially from those who haven't even got a dog in this fight.
AR,
Denying a jumpseat to a SW pilot because you don't like the way negotiations are going? Gimme a break.
You're right, there is a process agreement but it is being followed in a way to protect the SW pilots. I guess I'm a fool for not thinking that the threatening of putting AT on the street is following the process agreement. For that I apologize.
These are not negotiations my friend. This is a management stepping in for a side of the fight in the process and saying "this is how its going to go or else". How could a group do whats best for them or try to defend it if the thought of not being able to continue to provide a roof over their families heads is prevalent? I'd LOVE to see your response to that question and more importantly would like to know what you would do if you were in their shoes. A lot of people don't agree with Tsquare but he hit the nail on the head because at the end of the day, the AT guys received SL10 with a gun to their heads and that played a HUGE role in the agreement between the two pilot groups. Plain and simple.
I can "guarantee" that this will not go to arbitration. Mark my words.
10-20-2011, 01:26 PM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 270
Blakman and Alfaromeo: Guys, we get it, you don't like what is happeneing to the AT folks. But if you think that SWAPA and the SWA pilots had anything to do with it, you are kidding yourselves. These offers came from the company, not the union or the company and the union.
GK wanted all this stuff completed months ago and got involved to speed it all up. He thought he had an agreement the first time around just to have the ALPA folks not send it to membership. Fine. As is usual, his second offer was less for the group that turned him down. (we've seen this before, most recently with our last contract, we turned down the first offer (first time in history I believe) and the next offer many people feel was worse but was taken because the third was believed to be even worse) If you think we are jumping up and down high fiving each other in private, you are oh so very wrong. There are many things we are not happy about.
So if you have an issue, please aim it not at the pilots, but at the company for sticking its nose in and deciding it couldn't wait for the unions to work it out.
If the AT folks don't like this offer, then they should vote no, many people (though probably not enough to block its passage) on our side are voting no as well.
GK wanted all this stuff completed months ago and got involved to speed it all up. He thought he had an agreement the first time around just to have the ALPA folks not send it to membership. Fine. As is usual, his second offer was less for the group that turned him down. (we've seen this before, most recently with our last contract, we turned down the first offer (first time in history I believe) and the next offer many people feel was worse but was taken because the third was believed to be even worse) If you think we are jumping up and down high fiving each other in private, you are oh so very wrong. There are many things we are not happy about.
So if you have an issue, please aim it not at the pilots, but at the company for sticking its nose in and deciding it couldn't wait for the unions to work it out.
If the AT folks don't like this offer, then they should vote no, many people (though probably not enough to block its passage) on our side are voting no as well.
10-20-2011, 01:56 PM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,027
I think your "guarantee" of GK not looking favorably upon the SW guys if this is voted down is complete horsecrap and I think you know it. First of all, SW pilots won't vote it down.....lets be serious. Second, if they did vote it down, I think that GK will provide a little bit of incentive for the SW guys that wouldn't be available to the AT guys until a few years down the road. If SW guys vote it down, there wouldn't be any punishment for them. They are what GK is trying to keep happy.
You're right, there is a process agreement but it is being followed in a way to protect the SW pilots. I guess I'm a fool for not thinking that the threatening of putting AT on the street is following the process agreement. For that I apologize.
These are not negotiations my friend. This is a management stepping in for a side of the fight in the process and saying "this is how its going to go or else".
How could a group do whats best for them or try to defend it if the thought of not being able to continue to provide a roof over their families heads is prevalent? I'd LOVE to see your response to that question and more importantly would like to know what you would do if you were in their shoes.
What would I have done if I were an AT guy and had the choice? I would've taken SL9 and never looked back.
A lot of people don't agree with Tsquare but he hit the nail on the head because at the end of the day, the AT guys received SL10 with a gun to their heads and that played a HUGE role in the agreement between the two pilot groups. Plain and simple.
Funny how you don't see too many AT guys complaining about it. All I see is a bunch of "outraged" OAL and a few SW guys complaining about it.
I can "guarantee" that this will not go to arbitration. Mark my words.
10-20-2011, 02:11 PM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: B-737 Right
Posts: 243
... GK wanted all this stuff completed months ago and got involved to speed it all up. ... So if you have an issue, please aim it not at the pilots, but at the company for sticking its nose in and deciding it couldn't wait for the unions to work it out.
If the AT folks don't like this offer, then they should vote no, many people (though probably not enough to block its passage) on our side are voting no as well.
If the AT folks don't like this offer, then they should vote no, many people (though probably not enough to block its passage) on our side are voting no as well.
10-20-2011, 02:28 PM
#66
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
10-20-2011, 02:58 PM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 478
No they won't (and you know it...your arm getting tired from all the pot-stirring yet?) An arbitrator would almost certainly award something between DOH and pure relative seniority. That's why this proposed ISL will pass by a healthy margin on the SWA side. The company (not just SWAPA, remember?) wants to avoid this result and is apparently willing to use every available option to avoid & delay implementing an arbitrated ISL indefinitely. That's why this proposed SLI will pass by a healthy margin on the ATN side. No one likes to vote based on fear and uncertainty, but that's where both sides are. Thank SWA mgmt if you are looking for the real cause.
See above. It's not just the ATN pilots that are threatened.
10-20-2011, 03:01 PM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 191
Not trying to be rude BoeingTanker but apparently you haven't been paying much attention to the posts that I have posted in this thread. I can't and won't speak for Alfaromeo. I have defended the SW pilot group since the beginning and will continue to hold them to a high degree because they have helped me when I needed to get home or to get somewhere and have been nothing but pleasant and accommodating. I am angry with the SWA management. NOT the SW pilots.
10-20-2011, 03:06 PM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 478
10% on both sides of the fence will never see eye to eye on this. I think the mud slinging and tomato throwing will go on forever. I have a former NWA friend who lost 300 numbers in the merger. I have a Delta friend who lost his Captain seat in the same merger. I have a friend who is ex TWA who has been on furlough for 10 years. He is still bitter and angry at AA and always will be. This is the airline biz, none of this is new. It takes a lot of effort to stay angry.
--S.B.
--S.B.
10-20-2011, 03:09 PM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 191
If he asked for input from SWAPA on what that bone could be, no one has any way of knowing.
However, I will add that there are so many other areas in SL10 that folks have issues with, I doubt there was any real meaningful input from SWAPA at all.
And even if there was, what is SWAPA's job??? To represent the dues paying membership. Imagine if you will the reaction towards ANY union that decided that they needed to pay more attention to the other group instead of their own members. During negotiations prior to the company stepping in both sides were asking for the stars, neither side got what they asked for in the end.
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