1Seat 1Engine

How many 717's need to be added before 2015 to make that happen?

Marvin

None.

SWA new hires will be assigned to the 717 on the SWA side as needed. Those guys will be on the A scale.

Airtran 717 pilots on the SWA side will be on the B scale until Jan 2015.

If there are furloughs, then there will be even more SWA pilots on the A scale with Airtran pilots on the B scale, but no furlough is required to make this happen. New SWA pilots will be needed simply to cover normal attrition.

1Seat 1Engine

I don't see this in the agreement.

I agree that 737 pilots displaced to the 717 will receive 737 pay.

I agree that the agreement allows for new hires into the 717, but I couldn't find anywhere that said they would be at 737 rates.

So where are you reading/hearing this?

Marvin

See SL10, page 7:

Southwest Pilots will be paid B737 rates in the event they are awarded the B717.

It is right after the tables that show Airtran contract rates converted to TFP.

So ... new SWA pilots will be on the A scale and Airtran pilots on the SWA side will be paid the B scale. Sets a nice new precedent ... and sets up a nice situation where 2nd year SWA FOs will be more highly paid than FOs at the same company flying the same equipment with 4 years seniority over them.

Or maybe I'm missing something.

ClipperJet

Nobody is talking about the other side of this "B-Scale" equation. Assume that everyone is brought up to SWA wages, with the ATL/717 fence in place. You would now have a junior AT 717 Captain making SWA Captain pay while a senior SWA FO makes SWA FO pay. This makes sense, unless there is a circumstance where the SWA FO is senior to the AT 717 captain both by original DOH and on the combined master seniority list. In effect, that would be a "B scale" for the SWA FO.

With all the arguments I've heard about seniority being more important than pay, how AT pilots getting a large pay raise in this acquisition doesn't hurt the SWA pilots, and that the SWA pilots should think that others getting a huge pay raise while their pay remains the same is “fair and equitable,” I am curious why there is concern that someone else may be making more when they get "nothing."

MatthewAMEL

You are an agreement behind. There is no ATL fence. Other than the 3-year equipment lock (for both 717 and 737 post-transition bid) there are no locks/fences.

You should also know that for 2/3 of the ATN pilots, there is no pay increase until 1/1/2015.

There are only 707 SWA 737 FO slots being made available. Projections say that more than half of those slots will be taken by current ATN CA's, so in reality, the only part of the ATN group that will be getting a pay raise are the ~350 ATN FO's who can hold one of the SWA FO slots.

1Seat 1Engine

But it also says that new hiring will be fleet specific. i.e. New hire 717 vacancies will be hired as 717 pilots from the begining.

I interpreted what you quoted as relating to current SWA pilots displaced into the 717...Or maybe I'm missing something too?

I don't think it's a question anyone on this sides been asking. I also can't imagine that SWAPA would have given up any negotiating capital over that kind of issue. Hmmmm.

ClipperJet

Thanks for the update.

Is there a situation where one of the junior 717 captains would, via the 3 year seat lock, end up junior to a SWA FO on the master list, yet maintain their captain seat? If yes, then bringing the AT pilots up to SWA 737 pay before the equipment locks go away would have junior pilots being paid more than senior pilots--the scenario some were complaining about w/ SWA new hires going to the 717 at SWA 737 pay.

MatthewAMEL

1Seat,

It's easy to miss, but here is the language in SL10 that establishes, for 3 years, the b-scale.

H.6. - Southwest Pilots will be paid B737 rates in the event they are awarded the B717.

I.4. - “Southwest Pilot”: Any Pilot on the Southwest Master Pilot Seniority List as of the date of ratification of Side Letter 10, and pilots hired by Southwest Airlines after ratification of Side Letter 10.

There will absolutely be new hires after 2013 that are placed in the 717. Simply to cover attrition if for no other reason. After 12 months, those pilots will be paid more than a 5-year ATN FO.

ClipperJet

So what is the problem with that?

- AT pilots have argued that seniority is more important than pay. The SWA 717 new hires will be junior to every AT pilot.

- AT pilots were advocating a relative seniority system where a 6 year AT pilot (junior captain) would make more than a 10 year SWA pilot (senior FO).

- AT pilots have argued that if one group gets a large pay increase, that increase in no way harms the other group. Additionally, the group who gets no pay raise should not feel slighted at all.

Now, strangely, it seems to be a problem and inherently unfair when someone junior makes more money. I don't understand...