AIP2 approved by SWAPA BOD and ATN MEC
09-24-2011, 10:08 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
I don't think there was any negotiating at all. Sounds like SWA management walked in the room, told SWAPA to go sit over there and be quiet and then proceeded to dictate terms to ALPA. APA probably wouldn't have any better traction than ALPA. Kinda hard to negotiate with someone who has no intention of negotiating or of honoring any signed agreements.
09-24-2011, 10:44 AM
#32
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Scambo, I'm not an expert but here is what I'm hearing...
After the first AIP was turned down by the MEC, AT went back to the table with a new offer. SWA said they wouldn't even negotiate unless the MEC guaranteed that any agreement would be sent out to a vote by the entire pilot group. The MEC agreed. Then Herb and Colleen walked into the room and made specific threats as to what would happen if an agreement wasn't reached. SWA rejected the AirTran proposal and said here is our new proposal....we will give your guys a few more numbers on the integrated list, but no AirTran pilot comes to SWA as a B737 captain. You can be a SWA B737FO, SWA B717 captain or SWA B717 fo. The new AIP has no base protections, seat protections (except B717 until 2015), SWA pay now starts when you go to training (instead of April 2012 under the old AIP). A small number of B737 AT pilots will actually convert to SWA in 2012. No 717 conversions until 2013. Most AT guys will lose $40K - $100K by the delay to SWA rates. Junior AT 737 fo's may get displaced to the 717 and then not on SWA rates until late 2014. Still stapling the bottom 450 AT fo's. Furlough protections not as good as AIP1. Most all AT pilots will end up commuting. Compared to AIP1, AIP2 is much worse financially for AirTran guys and gals. SWA has made it clear that if they turn it down, AT pilots will not be assimilated and can file for unemployment.
The winners are SWA and SWAPA, if it passes. SWA will pay AT pilots a lot less during the conversion. SWAPA wins with 300+ fo's who will get AT captain seats over the next 2 years, the top 1300 guys get an entire airline (1800) below them, and the majority of the rest of the SWA list gets AT pilots below them at DOH minus 2 to 3 years (a much better deal than arbitration would have given them). The AirTran guys get.....to keep their job and eventually someday get a raise. The biggest loser may be a climate of trust and respect between GK and his new employees.
There is now a recall vote underway for certain members of the AT MEC who supposedly withheld the threats that were made during negotiations for AIP1 from the membership. Had this info been publicly acknowledged, AIP1 may have gone out for a vote and passed and the current state of affairs wouldn't be quite so draconian.
Hope this helps.
After the first AIP was turned down by the MEC, AT went back to the table with a new offer. SWA said they wouldn't even negotiate unless the MEC guaranteed that any agreement would be sent out to a vote by the entire pilot group. The MEC agreed. Then Herb and Colleen walked into the room and made specific threats as to what would happen if an agreement wasn't reached. SWA rejected the AirTran proposal and said here is our new proposal....we will give your guys a few more numbers on the integrated list, but no AirTran pilot comes to SWA as a B737 captain. You can be a SWA B737FO, SWA B717 captain or SWA B717 fo. The new AIP has no base protections, seat protections (except B717 until 2015), SWA pay now starts when you go to training (instead of April 2012 under the old AIP). A small number of B737 AT pilots will actually convert to SWA in 2012. No 717 conversions until 2013. Most AT guys will lose $40K - $100K by the delay to SWA rates. Junior AT 737 fo's may get displaced to the 717 and then not on SWA rates until late 2014. Still stapling the bottom 450 AT fo's. Furlough protections not as good as AIP1. Most all AT pilots will end up commuting. Compared to AIP1, AIP2 is much worse financially for AirTran guys and gals. SWA has made it clear that if they turn it down, AT pilots will not be assimilated and can file for unemployment.
The winners are SWA and SWAPA, if it passes. SWA will pay AT pilots a lot less during the conversion. SWAPA wins with 300+ fo's who will get AT captain seats over the next 2 years, the top 1300 guys get an entire airline (1800) below them, and the majority of the rest of the SWA list gets AT pilots below them at DOH minus 2 to 3 years (a much better deal than arbitration would have given them). The AirTran guys get.....to keep their job and eventually someday get a raise. The biggest loser may be a climate of trust and respect between GK and his new employees.
There is now a recall vote underway for certain members of the AT MEC who supposedly withheld the threats that were made during negotiations for AIP1 from the membership. Had this info been publicly acknowledged, AIP1 may have gone out for a vote and passed and the current state of affairs wouldn't be quite so draconian.
Hope this helps.
A couple of more comments here:
1. If the airtran contract has any legally enforceable clause to protect pilots in the merger, vote no. Arbitrate. Sending it to memrat is an abdication by ALPA.
2. Its a no brainer no vote for anyone of 717 seniority. SWA has already shown their hand with respect to the future of that plane on the property.
3. There does not appear to even be an attempt to play fair on the side of SWA mgmt.
4. I know guys at both companies, I just cant believe how harsh this whole thing is shelling out.
09-24-2011, 10:58 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: B-737 Right
Posts: 243
A couple of more comments here:
1. If the airtran contract has any legally enforceable clause to protect pilots in the merger, vote no. Arbitrate. Sending it to memrat is an abdication by ALPA.
2. Its a no brainer no vote for anyone of 717 seniority. SWA has already shown their hand with respect to the future of that plane on the property.
...
1. If the airtran contract has any legally enforceable clause to protect pilots in the merger, vote no. Arbitrate. Sending it to memrat is an abdication by ALPA.
2. Its a no brainer no vote for anyone of 717 seniority. SWA has already shown their hand with respect to the future of that plane on the property.
...
To paraphrase ... in order for McCaskill-Bond to be a player, you must integrate into a single airline (single operating certificate - SOC) and the acquiring airline must take over at least 50% of the acquired airline's assets. No SOC, no M-B.
It is not a no-brainer for 717 pilots with seniority to vote "no" unless they are willing to risk unemployment for a lengthy period of time.
09-24-2011, 11:02 AM
#34
On Reserve
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 20
Alpa simply did not do their homework. Had they done so they would have known that:
1. SWA has successful 40 year history of making the right decisions, and they are ruthless in any negotiation.
2. SWA will protect it's employees like a mother grizzly does her cubs.
3. No competent and successful CEO will allow an outside, disinterested, 3rd party, to make decisions for their company.
1. SWA has successful 40 year history of making the right decisions, and they are ruthless in any negotiation.
2. SWA will protect it's employees like a mother grizzly does her cubs.
3. No competent and successful CEO will allow an outside, disinterested, 3rd party, to make decisions for their company.
09-24-2011, 12:07 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 270
I don't think that it would bring anything to a halt except for the AT guys jobs. I am willing to bet that if they did a big hiring spree to fill those fresh positions with those who are willing to buy into the "LUV" and "Culture", start those new pilots at the bottom of the pay scale (being first year employees), while continuing to profit from revenue and not dishing out as much money to the pilot group because you have 1,800 fresh pilots.........it would be done. I do agree that it would be counter productive to the acquisition but if you have run things a certain way for over 40 years and have been extremely successful at it, would you change your methods just because of a relatively small group that has joined the team? Or would you simply hire a new group that will buy into your methods?
09-24-2011, 12:21 PM
#36
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
I don't think that it would bring anything to a halt except for the AT guys jobs. I am willing to bet that if they did a big hiring spree to fill those fresh positions with those who are willing to buy into the "LUV" and "Culture", start those new pilots at the bottom of the pay scale (being first year employees), while continuing to profit from revenue and not dishing out as much money to the pilot group because you have 1,800 fresh pilots.........it would be done. I do agree that it would be counter productive to the acquisition but if you have run things a certain way for over 40 years and have been extremely successful at it, would you change your methods just because of a relatively small group that has joined the team? Or would you simply hire a new group that will buy into your methods?
09-24-2011, 12:25 PM
#37
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Wow...If this new proposal is true and SWA/SWAPA can strong arm the SLI in this manner, someone please explain to me what ALPA is worth? My point is not to accuse SWA/SWAPA clearly they are looking out for the best interests of their pilot group and the company. But what exactly is ALPA doing for the AirTran pilot group, clearly they are powerless in negotiations with SWA/SWAPA. Someone please help justify ALPAs existence and dues??
The AT MEC decided to not bring the first offer to MEMRAT, & everybody screamed. Now they bring the second one to MEMRAT, & everybody screams. So which would you prefer to see? They've done both, but somehow they have failed.
09-24-2011, 01:02 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: In the bunk
Posts: 394
It's empty threats. SWA management is backed in a corner. They've been told no and they don't like it. Stand strong AT pilots. You didn't back down from your management. Why would you back down from SWA's?
The AT MEC decided to not bring the first offer to MEMRAT, & everybody screamed. Now they bring the second one to MEMRAT, & everybody screams. So which would you prefer to see? They've done both, but somehow they have failed.
The AT MEC decided to not bring the first offer to MEMRAT, & everybody screamed. Now they bring the second one to MEMRAT, & everybody screams. So which would you prefer to see? They've done both, but somehow they have failed.
I've heard from some SWA guys that they hope AT votes this down. SWA management definitely doesn't like being told no, let alone being told no twice!
09-24-2011, 01:11 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 754
Alpa simply did not do their homework. Had they done so they would have known that:
1. SWA has successful 40 year history of making the right decisions, and they are ruthless in any negotiation.
2. SWA will protect it's employees like a mother grizzly does her cubs.
3. No competent and successful CEO will allow an outside, disinterested, 3rd party, to make decisions for their company.
1. SWA has successful 40 year history of making the right decisions, and they are ruthless in any negotiation.
2. SWA will protect it's employees like a mother grizzly does her cubs.
3. No competent and successful CEO will allow an outside, disinterested, 3rd party, to make decisions for their company.
If you read 'NUTS!', one of the tenets you come away with is, 'you are not Southwest, until you are Southwest'.
09-24-2011, 01:33 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: C47 PIC/747-400 SIC
Posts: 2,100
It's empty threats. SWA management is backed in a corner. They've been told no and they don't like it. Stand strong AT pilots. You didn't back down from your management. Why would you back down from SWA's?
The AT MEC decided to not bring the first offer to MEMRAT, & everybody screamed. Now they bring the second one to MEMRAT, & everybody screams. So which would you prefer to see? They've done both, but somehow they have failed.
The AT MEC decided to not bring the first offer to MEMRAT, & everybody screamed. Now they bring the second one to MEMRAT, & everybody screams. So which would you prefer to see? They've done both, but somehow they have failed.
Last edited by johnso29; 09-24-2011 at 02:40 PM.
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