Relevance of 717 to SWA continues to diminish
09-07-2011, 11:05 AM
#221
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
But is in your best interest to make sure that the company doesn't run rough shod over the guys you are about to share the workplace with.
Bullplop. That proposal didn't hit SWAPA out of the blue. There is no way you will convince me of that. Ya'll knew before the ink was dry what was in it.. long before the ATN guys did... and you thought it was a great deal. You should have told the company then.. Or is the company not reeeeally all that interested in YOUR input. If that is true, so much for your great relationship with management.
Bullplop. That proposal didn't hit SWAPA out of the blue. There is no way you will convince me of that. Ya'll knew before the ink was dry what was in it.. long before the ATN guys did... and you thought it was a great deal. You should have told the company then.. Or is the company not reeeeally all that interested in YOUR input. If that is true, so much for your great relationship with management.
09-07-2011, 11:15 AM
#222
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
The company is reeeeally interested in making money! They also don't mind sharing it with you. If you honestly believe that SWA will let SWAPA broker a $3 billion deal you are truly delusional. Did the company in fact eventually share the proposal with SWAPA, of course they did, just as they did with ALPA. If you are insinuating SWAPA wrote it or was a major architect of the plan you are incorrect. If you also truly believe that the union I pay my dues to should be advocating that a deal put on the table is simply too good for us and not good enough for them, then you really don't understand union representation.
09-07-2011, 11:27 AM
#223
Keep Calm Chive ON
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Boeing's Plastic Jet Button Pusher - 787
Posts: 2,086
Didn't GK already let SWAPA attempt the 'brokering' of a deal by way of the Frontier deal/negotiation??
I know I know, details...."B" vs "M".....$3 Billion vs $170-ish Million.
Just curious if this has anything to play from the past???
09-07-2011, 11:48 AM
#225
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: guppy CA
Posts: 5,171
As for your list of Presidents, G.H.W. Bush ends up in the bottom 5 on most lists, Carter around 10 to 13 from the bottom and Obama is currently in the top 15. The most authoritative list, according to US News and World Report is as follows, for the worst:
32. James Carter
33. Zachary Taylor
34. Benjamin Harrison
35. William Henry Harrison
36. Herbert Hoover
37. John Tyler
38. Millard Fillmore
39. George W. Bush
40. Franklin Pierce
41. Warren G. Harding
42. James Buchanan
43. Andrew Johnson
32. James Carter
33. Zachary Taylor
34. Benjamin Harrison
35. William Henry Harrison
36. Herbert Hoover
37. John Tyler
38. Millard Fillmore
39. George W. Bush
40. Franklin Pierce
41. Warren G. Harding
42. James Buchanan
43. Andrew Johnson
The list looks fairly inverted to me; Andrew Johnson killed the US central bank and for that alone would rank very high on my list of best Presidents. Warren G Harding dealt with a depression following WWI and cut government spending in half in two years; he'd also rank high on my list.
But since I specified the span of MY lifetime, the list would only include Presidents from Ike to Obama. IMHO, Obama is the worst President that I have seen in my lifetime; the job is so far beyond his abilities that I am amazed that anyone still supports him.
I would put Eisenhower and Reagan at the top of any list. I'd actually give Ford a fairly high ranking for restoring dignity to the office. While I'd score early JFK low, he grew into the job as was seen by his Presidential handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis. For that matter, I'd also give Clinton very high marks.
While I'd give LBJ, Nixon, Bush 41, and Bush 43 low marks, they would all score better than Carter.
YMMV.
... sorry for the thread drift.
09-07-2011, 11:48 AM
#226
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
The company is reeeeally interested in making money! They also don't mind sharing it with you. If you honestly believe that SWA will let SWAPA broker a $3 billion deal you are truly delusional. Did the company in fact eventually share the proposal with SWAPA, of course they did, just as they did with ALPA. If you are insinuating SWAPA wrote it or was a major architect of the plan you are incorrect. If you also truly believe that the union I pay my dues to should be advocating that a deal put on the table is simply too good for us and not good enough for them, then you really don't understand union representation.
I can see why pilots care: vacation, days off, upgrade, etc. But, why would Southwest Airlines care?
09-07-2011, 11:53 AM
#227
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: DC9 CA
Posts: 99
Because, as GK said, he's not going to let SWAPA turn the place into the next USAir. I see his point.
09-07-2011, 11:58 AM
#228
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: DC9 CA
Posts: 99
Now back to the matter of the relevance of the 717.
Laura Wright said today that it would be years before the 717 is removed from service. But maybe she didn't get the memo from the line pilots at SW.
Southwest hopes new planes will help profitability - Yahoo! Finance
Now, you sure you want a "B" scale since a reported 350 SW pilots will be upgrading sooner rather than later?
Laura Wright said today that it would be years before the 717 is removed from service. But maybe she didn't get the memo from the line pilots at SW.
Southwest hopes new planes will help profitability - Yahoo! Finance
Now, you sure you want a "B" scale since a reported 350 SW pilots will be upgrading sooner rather than later?
Last edited by JohnDeere; 09-07-2011 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Formatting
09-07-2011, 12:48 PM
#229
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: B737/Capt
Posts: 998
You are correct, I have over 5K hrs in an RJ, but I only got it after the industry gave away the RJ's and the LCC's started pilfering routes. I got the time in the RJ because the only places hiring were LCC's. In fact I already had letters from a few companies in 2001 offering interviews and employment, but all of that dried up by mid 2001.
Scope relaxation was the answer the legacies had for the onslaught of the LCC"s and their pilots willing to accept less. Rj's were another poor mistake, but do not think they were the sole reason for what we experience today. They were a poor answer on how to thwart off the low and ultra-low cost carriers. Yes, it has left the legacies with a diluted brand, and an industry with no/low customer loyalty, RASM in the toilet, and customers now seeing air travel as public transportation.
Things that did not help:
1) Airlines like SWA, who was a National airline at least 20 years ago requiring their pilots to posses a 737 type prior to starting the job. (SWAPA not demanding this go away)
2) Lance Captains which in reality cut those guys pay, and captain positions.
3) Airline pilots willing to accept a 401K as their retirement, when the industry norm was a Pension.
4) Pilots willing to get paid less (at the time by a fair sum) (SWAPA, NKS, ATA, ATN) over their counterparts at the legacies etc, with the hopes of quick growth to expedite their time to the left seat.
Just to be clear, I have no issue work with efficiency. I like SWA's trip construction because it uses the pilots time efficiently, but many of your pilots are busting their humps because as Gecko says, "Greed is good." The almighty dollar and the pursuit their of, in itself is not a bad thing, but undercutting your own profession to the point that the profession is now, is what I take issue with, not efficiency. One can be efficient with their time without getting to where we are today. If you look at SWAPA's last few agreements with the company, they have not been quick or produced the returns that previous agreements have. Why? Simple, the pilots of those other carriers fell by the weight of the underdog; SWA, and as a result SWA now needs to compete cost wise with these carriers. Remember compeition is a good thing, but now instead of being on the giving end, SWA and its pilots find themselves' on the receiving end. Raises will be less, stagnation will continue, the four to five year upgrade will give way to career FO's that will demand more than what they have gotten in the past. The retirement that was acceptable because of the quick upgrade will no longer be acceptable to those who are stuck at a point where the quick growth will not effect them.
It was a great run, and I admire Herb for his savvy, but with everything, eventually you must live in the wold (industry) you have helped create.
Again, RJ's were a wrong answer, but put the chronology in the correct sequence. They were a poor answer to the misjudgement of the LCC's era. Legacy airlines mortgaged their companies thinking that the LCC"s were a fad, when they were wrong, the RJ appeared to be the savor, which it was not, but instead a boat anchor. The result was a CH11 era in the airlines where the legacy costs were slashed, and all of a sudden the new norm was slightly below that of SWA. It does not effect the executives, but the workers, and the customers. Both have suffered with less service, and we with less pay and benefits. We can keep going around and around that competition is good, and it is. I like capitalism, but understand that too much of a good thing results in less for all, with what you are purchasing being a shadow of what it once was.
For the SWA pilot it is intangible because you cannot see what you would have had, you currently see yourselves at the top, and you are. My point was if there was a little less vigor to kill the legacies on the part of the LCC's and their pilots, there will still be more at the table for all to enjoy. I highly suspect that if the majors did not go though CH11 and their liquidity issues, we would be paid far more than we currently are, and as a direct result of that, the industry leading pay on the 73N would not be SWA at 212 an hr. That concept is very hard for a lot to grasp.
*Do not forget that during DAL's CH11 the company was doing everything they could to get costs below that of SWA. Why? Because they say you as the reason for the issue and if their costs could be less than theirs, they could then compete with you. They wanted their pilots on the low end of the compensation spectrum.
Scope relaxation was the answer the legacies had for the onslaught of the LCC"s and their pilots willing to accept less. Rj's were another poor mistake, but do not think they were the sole reason for what we experience today. They were a poor answer on how to thwart off the low and ultra-low cost carriers. Yes, it has left the legacies with a diluted brand, and an industry with no/low customer loyalty, RASM in the toilet, and customers now seeing air travel as public transportation.
Things that did not help:
1) Airlines like SWA, who was a National airline at least 20 years ago requiring their pilots to posses a 737 type prior to starting the job. (SWAPA not demanding this go away)
2) Lance Captains which in reality cut those guys pay, and captain positions.
3) Airline pilots willing to accept a 401K as their retirement, when the industry norm was a Pension.
4) Pilots willing to get paid less (at the time by a fair sum) (SWAPA, NKS, ATA, ATN) over their counterparts at the legacies etc, with the hopes of quick growth to expedite their time to the left seat.
Just to be clear, I have no issue work with efficiency. I like SWA's trip construction because it uses the pilots time efficiently, but many of your pilots are busting their humps because as Gecko says, "Greed is good." The almighty dollar and the pursuit their of, in itself is not a bad thing, but undercutting your own profession to the point that the profession is now, is what I take issue with, not efficiency. One can be efficient with their time without getting to where we are today. If you look at SWAPA's last few agreements with the company, they have not been quick or produced the returns that previous agreements have. Why? Simple, the pilots of those other carriers fell by the weight of the underdog; SWA, and as a result SWA now needs to compete cost wise with these carriers. Remember compeition is a good thing, but now instead of being on the giving end, SWA and its pilots find themselves' on the receiving end. Raises will be less, stagnation will continue, the four to five year upgrade will give way to career FO's that will demand more than what they have gotten in the past. The retirement that was acceptable because of the quick upgrade will no longer be acceptable to those who are stuck at a point where the quick growth will not effect them.
It was a great run, and I admire Herb for his savvy, but with everything, eventually you must live in the wold (industry) you have helped create.
Again, RJ's were a wrong answer, but put the chronology in the correct sequence. They were a poor answer to the misjudgement of the LCC's era. Legacy airlines mortgaged their companies thinking that the LCC"s were a fad, when they were wrong, the RJ appeared to be the savor, which it was not, but instead a boat anchor. The result was a CH11 era in the airlines where the legacy costs were slashed, and all of a sudden the new norm was slightly below that of SWA. It does not effect the executives, but the workers, and the customers. Both have suffered with less service, and we with less pay and benefits. We can keep going around and around that competition is good, and it is. I like capitalism, but understand that too much of a good thing results in less for all, with what you are purchasing being a shadow of what it once was.
For the SWA pilot it is intangible because you cannot see what you would have had, you currently see yourselves at the top, and you are. My point was if there was a little less vigor to kill the legacies on the part of the LCC's and their pilots, there will still be more at the table for all to enjoy. I highly suspect that if the majors did not go though CH11 and their liquidity issues, we would be paid far more than we currently are, and as a direct result of that, the industry leading pay on the 73N would not be SWA at 212 an hr. That concept is very hard for a lot to grasp.
*Do not forget that during DAL's CH11 the company was doing everything they could to get costs below that of SWA. Why? Because they say you as the reason for the issue and if their costs could be less than theirs, they could then compete with you. They wanted their pilots on the low end of the compensation spectrum.
Again, I will ask how in the blue blazes did anyone think you are in a mindset to be a moderator? You and 80cups related to the APC founders? Don't get me wrong, I have had some discussions over the years with a few of the moderators on APC and they are good guys. I wouldn't want the job, so thanks for volunteering. Every once in a while, you and 80.......whatever throw a happy face in to make it seem like you are nuetral, but the bias (regardless of the TOS) is pretty obvious. JMHO!
I know the type of entitlement attitude to which you aspire. Heard it for 30+ years. "Pay for my type rating?", "That just isn't right," "I would never do that." News flash to the ACL mindset. One way or another we all pay for our training. Whether you worked pumping gas at the local FBO to get a little flight time for free or chose to serve your country by going through a demanding training program. We all payed for our training. I would ask you Mr. ACL, how did you pay for your training?
I personally had all the requirements to be hired by a "legacy" in 1988. I chose to go to SWA (with a brief stint at Pan Am waiting for the call) and I will tell you that the type rating was the best investment I have EVER made.
Defined Benefit programs have gone the way of the Dodo bird except for those who truly made sacrifices to keep them. No one knows how long they can hold on either. You can blame SWA for their demise but they would have been gone no matter what. Most company's who still have them are at least thinking of eliminating them.
The financial gains that UAL and DAL pilots made (in 2000) where at the expense of their fellow employees and the traveling public that had to endure the selfishness that brought about those contracts. There is only so much pie to divy up and when you take it from the plate of your fellow employees.......... well.....'nuff said.
When I was rehired at SWA as a pilot I still had a relationship with those who I had sweated with in the cargo bins (as a ramper) doing ten minute turns. I was proud when my former supervisor (who never made more than $22 an hour) told me about his son who was the first college graduate in their family. That same fellow employee retired early as a millionaire because of SWA and the profit sharing program. You do understand the concept of "sharing" I hope.
You Mr. ACL are not entitled to anything that you have not earned. As I said before, RAISE YOUR OWN BAR and quit blaming another group for what you don't have. I will go out everyday and do the best I can so that ALL of MY fellow employees know I have their back. I owe nothing to you or this profession. Any questions?
The (slightly disgusted) Oscar
09-07-2011, 01:23 PM
#230
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Oscar;
We all pay dues, but paying at your end game carrier is the issue. Do you not see that? I paid flying for the regionals for ten years, and before that, flying ad hoc work and before that, throwing bags et al. Point is I did not pay to get my final gig.
I do not fell entitled to anything, and from those that know me, know I am not afraid of hard work. In fact I encourage it. One thing that I do not do is profit at my fellow pilots expense. Politics aside, I believe that what made this industry strong in that past, is exactly what is needed today. It is largely missing and that is why we are where we are. Corporate America has been smart and knew exactly what it took.
Quick upgrades, stock options, profit sharing all work great when, in our industry upgrade times are short, and companies are profitable. I have no issue with any of those programs. Wrt to the DB v DC argument. They were solvent until there were airlines like yours that were willing to agree to go with out the DB plan. You are right, they are gone, but it was not deregulation that put the death nail in that. It was pilots willing to do the work without it.
I know SWA has 20K apps and all of them are willing to pay for the type. People see the money, and are willing to pay the price of admission. That is on top of 1000-1300 hrs of PIC 121 time. I mean really? What hasn't SWAPA said no more? The reality is it really reduces their costs, and as a result, is one less thing that they pay for and you do. I admit I applied there, but I also turned them down. I saw stagnation coming and frankly did not want to pay for a type. I love the culture, but really would like to see you guys really gain from the fruits of your labor.
Like I said it was easy a few years ago to ride the coat tails of the legacy contracts, but now that all of those have been gutted, you will find it more and more difficult to get raises that you would have if SWA and its pilots would have allowed the game to continue. I do agree it is over, but we all lose because of it. Many of your FO's will realize that as upgrade times keep getting longer and longer.
As for the mod stuff, there is no where that states I need to be impartial in my opinion. As you can tell I am quite opinionated on a few issues. In the end, I just want the SWAPA pilots to realize that what we see as a industry norm, wrt to pilot compensation is them, and as Herb told your pilots 20+ years ago, the goal was to always be just below that of the Legacies. The success went a little too far, and turned our profession upside down.
We all pay dues, but paying at your end game carrier is the issue. Do you not see that? I paid flying for the regionals for ten years, and before that, flying ad hoc work and before that, throwing bags et al. Point is I did not pay to get my final gig.
I do not fell entitled to anything, and from those that know me, know I am not afraid of hard work. In fact I encourage it. One thing that I do not do is profit at my fellow pilots expense. Politics aside, I believe that what made this industry strong in that past, is exactly what is needed today. It is largely missing and that is why we are where we are. Corporate America has been smart and knew exactly what it took.
Quick upgrades, stock options, profit sharing all work great when, in our industry upgrade times are short, and companies are profitable. I have no issue with any of those programs. Wrt to the DB v DC argument. They were solvent until there were airlines like yours that were willing to agree to go with out the DB plan. You are right, they are gone, but it was not deregulation that put the death nail in that. It was pilots willing to do the work without it.
I know SWA has 20K apps and all of them are willing to pay for the type. People see the money, and are willing to pay the price of admission. That is on top of 1000-1300 hrs of PIC 121 time. I mean really? What hasn't SWAPA said no more? The reality is it really reduces their costs, and as a result, is one less thing that they pay for and you do. I admit I applied there, but I also turned them down. I saw stagnation coming and frankly did not want to pay for a type. I love the culture, but really would like to see you guys really gain from the fruits of your labor.
Like I said it was easy a few years ago to ride the coat tails of the legacy contracts, but now that all of those have been gutted, you will find it more and more difficult to get raises that you would have if SWA and its pilots would have allowed the game to continue. I do agree it is over, but we all lose because of it. Many of your FO's will realize that as upgrade times keep getting longer and longer.
As for the mod stuff, there is no where that states I need to be impartial in my opinion. As you can tell I am quite opinionated on a few issues. In the end, I just want the SWAPA pilots to realize that what we see as a industry norm, wrt to pilot compensation is them, and as Herb told your pilots 20+ years ago, the goal was to always be just below that of the Legacies. The success went a little too far, and turned our profession upside down.
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