Relevance of 717 to SWA continues to diminish
09-07-2011, 04:47 AM
#201
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Some might say this:
What the Regionals and the CRJ pilots that took employment there did, was show airline managers that pilots were willing to accept less, a lot less than they currently were getting else where.
This allowed Regionals a huge advantage which the company took advantage of. They killed the legacies, and now after CH11 we are all dealing with the same levels that Regionals helped create. It really is what it is. My point is it worked for the last ? some years for the CRJ pilots, but going forward, with no one clearly above them wrt to pay, etc, it will be increasingly difficult for you to obtain the same increases. It is a result of forcing the corporations coat tails that you were able to ride, to start playing the Regional game. In reality it lowered the bar for everyone.
I know most disagree with that, and see Regionals and CRJ pilots as some beacon on the hill. Reality is Regionals and their employees helping them compete ruthlessly resulted in the industry we see today. It is a quazi free market, but in the end I am not sure that it really delivered the best product for the best price.
What the Regionals and the CRJ pilots that took employment there did, was show airline managers that pilots were willing to accept less, a lot less than they currently were getting else where.
This allowed Regionals a huge advantage which the company took advantage of. They killed the legacies, and now after CH11 we are all dealing with the same levels that Regionals helped create. It really is what it is. My point is it worked for the last ? some years for the CRJ pilots, but going forward, with no one clearly above them wrt to pay, etc, it will be increasingly difficult for you to obtain the same increases. It is a result of forcing the corporations coat tails that you were able to ride, to start playing the Regional game. In reality it lowered the bar for everyone.
I know most disagree with that, and see Regionals and CRJ pilots as some beacon on the hill. Reality is Regionals and their employees helping them compete ruthlessly resulted in the industry we see today. It is a quazi free market, but in the end I am not sure that it really delivered the best product for the best price.
This RJ Revolution debacle is 20 years old and this industry has gone through tremendous gyrations over that period to give us a mess. In the end I agree it's not the best product by any stretch of the imagination but you can't blame the workers in China for GE closing shop here and sending jobs there.
As to to undercutting the industry, you can say a lot of people have undercut the industry. Not only regional pilots taking low paying jobs in the hopes of making it to the majors but you could extend that out to mainline pilots not walking off the job when their pay was slashed 50% or for any airline pilot group that accepted any TA that paid less than the highest pay was at the time in the hopes it gives their company an advantage or it was flat out the best they could do.
09-07-2011, 06:36 AM
#202
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
Some might say this:
What the Regionals and the CRJ pilots that took employment there did, was show airline managers that pilots were willing to accept less, a lot less than they currently were getting else where.
This allowed Regionals a huge advantage which the company took advantage of. They killed the legacies, and now after CH11 we are all dealing with the same levels that Regionals helped create. It really is what it is. My point is it worked for the last ? some years for the CRJ pilots, but going forward, with no one clearly above them wrt to pay, etc, it will be increasingly difficult for you to obtain the same increases. It is a result of forcing the corporations coat tails that you were able to ride, to start playing the Regional game. In reality it lowered the bar for everyone.
I know most disagree with that, and see Regionals and CRJ pilots as some beacon on the hill. Reality is Regionals and their employees helping them compete ruthlessly resulted in the industry we see today. It is a quazi free market, but in the end I am not sure that it really delivered the best product for the best price.
What the Regionals and the CRJ pilots that took employment there did, was show airline managers that pilots were willing to accept less, a lot less than they currently were getting else where.
This allowed Regionals a huge advantage which the company took advantage of. They killed the legacies, and now after CH11 we are all dealing with the same levels that Regionals helped create. It really is what it is. My point is it worked for the last ? some years for the CRJ pilots, but going forward, with no one clearly above them wrt to pay, etc, it will be increasingly difficult for you to obtain the same increases. It is a result of forcing the corporations coat tails that you were able to ride, to start playing the Regional game. In reality it lowered the bar for everyone.
I know most disagree with that, and see Regionals and CRJ pilots as some beacon on the hill. Reality is Regionals and their employees helping them compete ruthlessly resulted in the industry we see today. It is a quazi free market, but in the end I am not sure that it really delivered the best product for the best price.
09-07-2011, 06:55 AM
#203
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 534
We agree on that, and that is not what I am pointing at. Paying for your type as a cost of entry is not something a airline should be doing but we line up in groves. When SWA started everyone was oh so happy to work there, a place with no pension.
What SWA and the pilots that took employment there did, was show airline managers that pilots were willing to accept less, a lot less than they currently were getting else where.
This allowed SWA a huge advantage which the company took advantage of. They killed the legacies, and now after CH11 we are all dealing with the same levels that SWAPA helped create. It really is what it is. My point is it worked for the last 30 some years for the SWA pilots, but going forward, with no one clearly above them wrt to pay, etc, it will be increasingly difficult for you to obtain the same increases. It is a result of forcing the corporations coat tails that you were able to ride, to start playing the SWA game. In reality it lowered the bar for everyone.
I know most disagree with that, and see SWA and SWAPA as some beacon on the hill. Reality is SWA and its employees helping them compete ruthlessly resulted in the industry we see today. It is a quazi free market, but in the end I am not sure that it really delivered the best product for the best price.
What SWA and the pilots that took employment there did, was show airline managers that pilots were willing to accept less, a lot less than they currently were getting else where.
This allowed SWA a huge advantage which the company took advantage of. They killed the legacies, and now after CH11 we are all dealing with the same levels that SWAPA helped create. It really is what it is. My point is it worked for the last 30 some years for the SWA pilots, but going forward, with no one clearly above them wrt to pay, etc, it will be increasingly difficult for you to obtain the same increases. It is a result of forcing the corporations coat tails that you were able to ride, to start playing the SWA game. In reality it lowered the bar for everyone.
I know most disagree with that, and see SWA and SWAPA as some beacon on the hill. Reality is SWA and its employees helping them compete ruthlessly resulted in the industry we see today. It is a quazi free market, but in the end I am not sure that it really delivered the best product for the best price.
Last edited by Clear Right; 09-07-2011 at 07:09 AM.
09-07-2011, 07:02 AM
#204
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
[QUOTE=forgot to bid;1050579] you can't blame the workers in China for GE closing shop here and sending jobs there.
You are absolutely correct. But, if you had a contract that said all widgets must be made here in our country, only by employees working at this company, and you chose to sign that protection away for a pay raise; then you can in fact blame yourself for those jobs going to China.
You are absolutely correct. But, if you had a contract that said all widgets must be made here in our country, only by employees working at this company, and you chose to sign that protection away for a pay raise; then you can in fact blame yourself for those jobs going to China.
Last edited by shoelu; 09-07-2011 at 07:22 AM.
09-07-2011, 08:04 AM
#205
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Some might say this:
What the Regionals and the CRJ pilots that took employment there did, was show airline managers that pilots were willing to accept less, a lot less than they currently were getting else where.
This allowed Regionals a huge advantage which the company took advantage of. They killed the legacies, and now after CH11 we are all dealing with the same levels that Regionals helped create. It really is what it is. My point is it worked for the last ? some years for the CRJ pilots, but going forward, with no one clearly above them wrt to pay, etc, it will be increasingly difficult for you to obtain the same increases. It is a result of forcing the corporations coat tails that you were able to ride, to start playing the Regional game. In reality it lowered the bar for everyone.
I know most disagree with that, and see Regionals and CRJ pilots as some beacon on the hill. Reality is Regionals and their employees helping them compete ruthlessly resulted in the industry we see today. It is a quazi free market, but in the end I am not sure that it really delivered the best product for the best price.
What the Regionals and the CRJ pilots that took employment there did, was show airline managers that pilots were willing to accept less, a lot less than they currently were getting else where.
This allowed Regionals a huge advantage which the company took advantage of. They killed the legacies, and now after CH11 we are all dealing with the same levels that Regionals helped create. It really is what it is. My point is it worked for the last ? some years for the CRJ pilots, but going forward, with no one clearly above them wrt to pay, etc, it will be increasingly difficult for you to obtain the same increases. It is a result of forcing the corporations coat tails that you were able to ride, to start playing the Regional game. In reality it lowered the bar for everyone.
I know most disagree with that, and see Regionals and CRJ pilots as some beacon on the hill. Reality is Regionals and their employees helping them compete ruthlessly resulted in the industry we see today. It is a quazi free market, but in the end I am not sure that it really delivered the best product for the best price.
09-07-2011, 08:27 AM
#206
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: DC9 CA
Posts: 99
Shoelu, please answer the question. You complained about ALPA and SWA negotiating directly. What do you suggest? Walk out?
We sent gentlemen. Are we dealing with thugs?
09-07-2011, 08:38 AM
#207
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
I also agree with this. It was the result of a decision of Legacy Airlines and their pilot groups. It was a last ditch effort to try to keep something worth keeping. The LCC business model made operating anywhere near a 15% margin impossible. The major RJ concessions took place in tandem with explosion of the LCC. Reality is those little darlings are no longer low cost, and now their airlines and pilot groups get to live in the world they fostered.
De-regulation fostered the economics of the current airline industry. Some entities were able to adapt and prosper and some weren't.
09-07-2011, 08:50 AM
#208
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
I think that is a question you need to decide for yourself. SWA will always negotiate aggressively to get what they want. I think they are actually all gentlemen whose job entails being a ruthless businessmen. If you don't like the way the negotiations are being handled your only option is to make no agreements. It is not SWAPA's job to protect you from negotiations with SWA. Even if it was, we have no tools to do so. All options on the table for all entities involved ALPA, SWAPA and SWA will potentially carry serious future consequences. One can only make the most informed possible decisions and hope for the best.
09-07-2011, 08:55 AM
#209
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: DC9 CA
Posts: 99
I think that is a question you need to decide for yourself. SWA will always negotiate aggressively to get what they want. I think they are actually all gentlemen whose job entails being a ruthless businessmen. If you don't like the way the negotiations are being handled your only option is to make no agreements. It is not SWAPA's job to protect you from negotiations with SWA. Even if it was, we have no tools to do so. All options on the table for all entities involved ALPA, SWAPA and SWA will potentially carry serious future consequences. One can only make the most informed possible decisions and hope for the best.
I heard there was a lawyer at SWAPA. You're the lawyer, aren't you?
09-07-2011, 09:02 AM
#210
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
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