Relevance of 717 to SWA continues to diminish
09-06-2011, 01:59 PM
#191
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: DC9 CA
Posts: 99
I'm not slamming anyone but it appears this is the first time Southwest has actually been down this road considering the scale of the transaction.
09-06-2011, 03:20 PM
#192
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
And when they choose not to listen to our advice, where do we go from there?
09-06-2011, 03:21 PM
#193
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
Isn't it your union that is directly negotiating with SWA?
09-06-2011, 04:03 PM
#194
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: DC9 CA
Posts: 99
09-06-2011, 04:37 PM
#195
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
What exactly do you propose we should be doing differently?
Do we have any way to compel management not to make offers toward a negotiated settlement? The answer is no we do not.
Should SWAPA be negotiating for ALPA? Is that what you think we should be doing?
The only leverage we have in this process right now is a no or yes vote on the deal that gets brokered.
I guess I just don't understand what exactly you think SWAPA should be doing at this point. Should we be advocating for ALPA? You want to talk about a sure fire way to get yourself in a very quick DFR suit, that will surely do it.
Please enlighten me to what methods you would employ if Delta ALPA was in the exact same situation right now. Please inform me what the right play is on our part. I truly want to know what legal options do you think are on the table for us at this point.
The company has a very vested interest in a negotiated and quick settlement. I just don't get what you think SWAPA could say or do at this point that will change that prospect.
Do we have any way to compel management not to make offers toward a negotiated settlement? The answer is no we do not.
Should SWAPA be negotiating for ALPA? Is that what you think we should be doing?
The only leverage we have in this process right now is a no or yes vote on the deal that gets brokered.
I guess I just don't understand what exactly you think SWAPA should be doing at this point. Should we be advocating for ALPA? You want to talk about a sure fire way to get yourself in a very quick DFR suit, that will surely do it.
Please enlighten me to what methods you would employ if Delta ALPA was in the exact same situation right now. Please inform me what the right play is on our part. I truly want to know what legal options do you think are on the table for us at this point.
The company has a very vested interest in a negotiated and quick settlement. I just don't get what you think SWAPA could say or do at this point that will change that prospect.
09-06-2011, 04:39 PM
#196
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
09-06-2011, 06:43 PM
#197
On Reserve
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 14
Okay ACL I'll bite. What the heck is the "status quo" that all pilot groups should be striving to maintain? What is your union bargaining for currently? I mean, are you telling me that we should tell our Company, the status quo is that a pilot only flies "x" number of hours a month for "x" dollars. Are you telling me that for the greater good of the entire industry all pilot groups should make pilot costs at every airline exactly the same with exactly the same working conditions so that the playing field is level with respect to pilot benefits and wages for every company? Are you saying that every pilot group at every airline should hold out for "X + 1 $" with X being the highest paid pilot group at the time, and if the company is unwilling then strike?
To this day, as far as I can tell, no one at any Major Airline looks at SWA and considers them an "equal" in any way shape or form, primarily because of the differences in the product we provide. So if we aren't your equals and never will be, how is it that we should have held out for what you had? Even if we had been the highest paid 737 guys at the time, you would have looked down your noses at us and scoffed, just as you still do today because "if not for chapter 11" we would just be middle of the pack pay and we work too hard for our money.
Finally, what the heck is so wrong with me agreeing to work hard on the days I'm at work? It's seems like people expect their companies to pay them for a 40 hour week but demand to only work 30. How can any company stay in business and be competitive with that type of philosophy? I don't apologize for the feeling that everyone has that the pilots of SWA have lowered the bar for the rest of the industry when we aren't and will never be seen as your equals based on the product that we provide. Our philosophy is that a pilot career is a marathon, not a sprint, and in order for that marathon to continue for all our employees, both now and in the future, we must work hand in hand with management to achieve that goal. I ran into a Flight Attendant last week at work that I hadn't seen in awhile. In the course of our conversation he related to me how excited he was that this year, because of his hard work, he will exceed six figures. Last year, we had many First Officers that exceeded 200K, and many Captains exceed 300K. Tell me what is so wrong with a company that provides these types of opportunities to it's employees? Is it bad because your company does not?
Sorry for the long rant and the thread creep, maybe we should start a new thread exploring the concept of "status quo".
Moose
To this day, as far as I can tell, no one at any Major Airline looks at SWA and considers them an "equal" in any way shape or form, primarily because of the differences in the product we provide. So if we aren't your equals and never will be, how is it that we should have held out for what you had? Even if we had been the highest paid 737 guys at the time, you would have looked down your noses at us and scoffed, just as you still do today because "if not for chapter 11" we would just be middle of the pack pay and we work too hard for our money.
Finally, what the heck is so wrong with me agreeing to work hard on the days I'm at work? It's seems like people expect their companies to pay them for a 40 hour week but demand to only work 30. How can any company stay in business and be competitive with that type of philosophy? I don't apologize for the feeling that everyone has that the pilots of SWA have lowered the bar for the rest of the industry when we aren't and will never be seen as your equals based on the product that we provide. Our philosophy is that a pilot career is a marathon, not a sprint, and in order for that marathon to continue for all our employees, both now and in the future, we must work hand in hand with management to achieve that goal. I ran into a Flight Attendant last week at work that I hadn't seen in awhile. In the course of our conversation he related to me how excited he was that this year, because of his hard work, he will exceed six figures. Last year, we had many First Officers that exceeded 200K, and many Captains exceed 300K. Tell me what is so wrong with a company that provides these types of opportunities to it's employees? Is it bad because your company does not?
Sorry for the long rant and the thread creep, maybe we should start a new thread exploring the concept of "status quo".
Moose
09-07-2011, 04:00 AM
#199
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Okay ACL I'll bite. What the heck is the "status quo" that all pilot groups should be striving to maintain? What is your union bargaining for currently? I mean, are you telling me that we should tell our Company, the status quo is that a pilot only flies "x" number of hours a month for "x" dollars. Are you telling me that for the greater good of the entire industry all pilot groups should make pilot costs at every airline exactly the same with exactly the same working conditions so that the playing field is level with respect to pilot benefits and wages for every company? Are you saying that every pilot group at every airline should hold out for "X + 1 $" with X being the highest paid pilot group at the time, and if the company is unwilling then strike?
To this day, as far as I can tell, no one at any Major Airline looks at SWA and considers them an "equal" in any way shape or form, primarily because of the differences in the product we provide. So if we aren't your equals and never will be, how is it that we should have held out for what you had? Even if we had been the highest paid 737 guys at the time, you would have looked down your noses at us and scoffed, just as you still do today because "if not for chapter 11" we would just be middle of the pack pay and we work too hard for our money.
Finally, what the heck is so wrong with me agreeing to work hard on the days I'm at work? It's seems like people expect their companies to pay them for a 40 hour week but demand to only work 30. How can any company stay in business and be competitive with that type of philosophy? I don't apologize for the feeling that everyone has that the pilots of SWA have lowered the bar for the rest of the industry when we aren't and will never be seen as your equals based on the product that we provide. Our philosophy is that a pilot career is a marathon, not a sprint, and in order for that marathon to continue for all our employees, both now and in the future, we must work hand in hand with management to achieve that goal. I ran into a Flight Attendant last week at work that I hadn't seen in awhile. In the course of our conversation he related to me how excited he was that this year, because of his hard work, he will exceed six figures. Last year, we had many First Officers that exceeded 200K, and many Captains exceed 300K. Tell me what is so wrong with a company that provides these types of opportunities to it's employees? Is it bad because your company does not?
Sorry for the long rant and the thread creep, maybe we should start a new thread exploring the concept of "status quo".
Moose
To this day, as far as I can tell, no one at any Major Airline looks at SWA and considers them an "equal" in any way shape or form, primarily because of the differences in the product we provide. So if we aren't your equals and never will be, how is it that we should have held out for what you had? Even if we had been the highest paid 737 guys at the time, you would have looked down your noses at us and scoffed, just as you still do today because "if not for chapter 11" we would just be middle of the pack pay and we work too hard for our money.
Finally, what the heck is so wrong with me agreeing to work hard on the days I'm at work? It's seems like people expect their companies to pay them for a 40 hour week but demand to only work 30. How can any company stay in business and be competitive with that type of philosophy? I don't apologize for the feeling that everyone has that the pilots of SWA have lowered the bar for the rest of the industry when we aren't and will never be seen as your equals based on the product that we provide. Our philosophy is that a pilot career is a marathon, not a sprint, and in order for that marathon to continue for all our employees, both now and in the future, we must work hand in hand with management to achieve that goal. I ran into a Flight Attendant last week at work that I hadn't seen in awhile. In the course of our conversation he related to me how excited he was that this year, because of his hard work, he will exceed six figures. Last year, we had many First Officers that exceeded 200K, and many Captains exceed 300K. Tell me what is so wrong with a company that provides these types of opportunities to it's employees? Is it bad because your company does not?
Sorry for the long rant and the thread creep, maybe we should start a new thread exploring the concept of "status quo".
Moose
What SWA and the pilots that took employment there did, was show airline managers that pilots were willing to accept less, a lot less than they currently were getting else where.
This allowed SWA a huge advantage which the company took advantage of. They killed the legacies, and now after CH11 we are all dealing with the same levels that SWAPA helped create. It really is what it is. My point is it worked for the last 30 some years for the SWA pilots, but going forward, with no one clearly above them wrt to pay, etc, it will be increasingly difficult for you to obtain the same increases. It is a result of forcing the corporations coat tails that you were able to ride, to start playing the SWA game. In reality it lowered the bar for everyone.
I know most disagree with that, and see SWA and SWAPA as some beacon on the hill. Reality is SWA and its employees helping them compete ruthlessly resulted in the industry we see today. It is a quazi free market, but in the end I am not sure that it really delivered the best product for the best price.
09-07-2011, 04:16 AM
#200
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 29
Some might say this:
What the Regionals and the CRJ pilots that took employment there did, was show airline managers that pilots were willing to accept less, a lot less than they currently were getting else where.
This allowed Regionals a huge advantage which the company took advantage of. They killed the legacies, and now after CH11 we are all dealing with the same levels that Regionals helped create. It really is what it is. My point is it worked for the last ? some years for the CRJ pilots, but going forward, with no one clearly above them wrt to pay, etc, it will be increasingly difficult for you to obtain the same increases. It is a result of forcing the corporations coat tails that you were able to ride, to start playing the Regional game. In reality it lowered the bar for everyone.
I know most disagree with that, and see Regionals and CRJ pilots as some beacon on the hill. Reality is Regionals and their employees helping them compete ruthlessly resulted in the industry we see today. It is a quazi free market, but in the end I am not sure that it really delivered the best product for the best price.
What the Regionals and the CRJ pilots that took employment there did, was show airline managers that pilots were willing to accept less, a lot less than they currently were getting else where.
This allowed Regionals a huge advantage which the company took advantage of. They killed the legacies, and now after CH11 we are all dealing with the same levels that Regionals helped create. It really is what it is. My point is it worked for the last ? some years for the CRJ pilots, but going forward, with no one clearly above them wrt to pay, etc, it will be increasingly difficult for you to obtain the same increases. It is a result of forcing the corporations coat tails that you were able to ride, to start playing the Regional game. In reality it lowered the bar for everyone.
I know most disagree with that, and see Regionals and CRJ pilots as some beacon on the hill. Reality is Regionals and their employees helping them compete ruthlessly resulted in the industry we see today. It is a quazi free market, but in the end I am not sure that it really delivered the best product for the best price.
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