Relevance of 717 to SWA continues to diminish
09-04-2011, 03:03 PM
#111
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
Posts: 1,724
All the reasons I too believe the 717 will end up at DAL.
100 seater check
low capital costs check
modern engines and systems check
The bottom line is that the 717 was engineered to be the ideal DC-9-50 replacement, and that's what Delta needs.
When the dust has settled the MD90 will have been the MD88 replacement and the 717 the DC-9 replacement.
Capital costs are the driving force that preclude any of the in-development jets...
The bigger challenge for WN pilots going forward is not the AT integration but the introduction of the 800. If I were a WN pilot I'd want every 717 integrated and in the fleet for a few years to balance it out.
Here's the associated equation:
more pax = growth
growth = more jets
More jets = more pilots
more pax + bigger jets = fewer pilots
I'd start squabbling and start planning how to be a formidable force going forward.
WN brings the brute force of a market dominator.
AT brings the expertise in international and premium services.
I can see why GK went for this deal.
When the dust settles a few years from now, WN will fly internationally to Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean and charge for bags along with a assigned seating "business class" portion of the cabin.
Cheers
George
Last edited by georgetg; 09-04-2011 at 03:13 PM.
09-04-2011, 03:21 PM
#112
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: B737/Capt
Posts: 998
DAL would not want the AAI operating certificate. DAL "may" want some of its jets. LUV would sell the jets and or return them to Boeing and then slowly shrink AAI, all of the time allowing the AAI guys to come to the bottom of the list. (Assuming no SLI) The LUV pilots would be complicit with that. They have been that way for a long time. They love undercutting other pilots, it is how they got to where they are.
I personally think that if DAL was to get these jets for their 800 options, it would be a measured delivery schedule of up to two to three years. All of the AAI pilots would have jobs at SWA as the new jets arrive. DAL could not take delivery of 88 jets that quickly. (plus the 20 that have gone off of BCFLC books)
Also didn't Gary Kelly's new SLI proposal just come out a few days ago? Weren't all of the seat protections gone?
The 717 makes sense for DAL and it does not for LUV. DAL can do the engine work for cheap, and it is a good bridge airplane in to early next decade.
How the deal is structured determines if it is just assets or assets with drivers. If it is the later, many must remember that LUV is hiring, and a lot of the pilots that would be effected are working for a profitable company, not one that has a leg in the grave. It is a very different set of circumstances that these short of things have seen before. The closest one was DAL acquiring the TWA/AMR birds from AMR with pilots on furlough, yet, no pilots came with the jet. If a transaction with LUV resulted in no furloughs, there would be little basis for the deal to include pilots.
Of course the devil is in the details.
I personally think that if DAL was to get these jets for their 800 options, it would be a measured delivery schedule of up to two to three years. All of the AAI pilots would have jobs at SWA as the new jets arrive. DAL could not take delivery of 88 jets that quickly. (plus the 20 that have gone off of BCFLC books)
Also didn't Gary Kelly's new SLI proposal just come out a few days ago? Weren't all of the seat protections gone?
The 717 makes sense for DAL and it does not for LUV. DAL can do the engine work for cheap, and it is a good bridge airplane in to early next decade.
How the deal is structured determines if it is just assets or assets with drivers. If it is the later, many must remember that LUV is hiring, and a lot of the pilots that would be effected are working for a profitable company, not one that has a leg in the grave. It is a very different set of circumstances that these short of things have seen before. The closest one was DAL acquiring the TWA/AMR birds from AMR with pilots on furlough, yet, no pilots came with the jet. If a transaction with LUV resulted in no furloughs, there would be little basis for the deal to include pilots.
Of course the devil is in the details.
We do our own thing here and have a completely different business model than the legacies. We provide the traveling public with a decent price for our product and receive pretty good wages in return.
Perhaps you should look in the mirror (and your predecessors) when you talk about undercutting. Who has allowed RJ's to take your flying and relegated any future new hires to substandard wages at the regionals? Leaving those same pilots to grovel when it is time to move up.
I think many mistakenly call it undercutting when really it is healthy and fierce competition that many fear. I have no doubt that SWA will have to face the same kind of competition in the future (if we haven't already). When you face adversity you adjust and become more determined. Blaming other pilots for your misfortune is getting rather stale. RAISE YOUR OWN BAR.
The Oscar
acl65 - Are you really a moderator?
Last edited by OscartheGrouch; 09-04-2011 at 03:43 PM.
09-04-2011, 06:42 PM
#113
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
DAL would not want the AAI operating certificate. DAL "may" want some of its jets. LUV would sell the jets and or return them to Boeing and then slowly shrink AAI, all of the time allowing the AAI guys to come to the bottom of the list. (Assuming no SLI) The LUV pilots would be complicit with that. They have been that way for a long time. They love undercutting other pilots, it is how they got to where they are.
I personally think that if DAL was to get these jets for their 800 options, it would be a measured delivery schedule of up to two to three years. All of the AAI pilots would have jobs at SWA as the new jets arrive. DAL could not take delivery of 88 jets that quickly. (plus the 20 that have gone off of BCFLC books)
Also didn't Gary Kelly's new SLI proposal just come out a few days ago? Weren't all of the seat protections gone?
The 717 makes sense for DAL and it does not for LUV. DAL can do the engine work for cheap, and it is a good bridge airplane in to early next decade.
How the deal is structured determines if it is just assets or assets with drivers. If it is the later, many must remember that LUV is hiring, and a lot of the pilots that would be effected are working for a profitable company, not one that has a leg in the grave. It is a very different set of circumstances that these short of things have seen before. The closest one was DAL acquiring the TWA/AMR birds from AMR with pilots on furlough, yet, no pilots came with the jet. If a transaction with LUV resulted in no furloughs, there would be little basis for the deal to include pilots.
Of course the devil is in the details.
I personally think that if DAL was to get these jets for their 800 options, it would be a measured delivery schedule of up to two to three years. All of the AAI pilots would have jobs at SWA as the new jets arrive. DAL could not take delivery of 88 jets that quickly. (plus the 20 that have gone off of BCFLC books)
Also didn't Gary Kelly's new SLI proposal just come out a few days ago? Weren't all of the seat protections gone?
The 717 makes sense for DAL and it does not for LUV. DAL can do the engine work for cheap, and it is a good bridge airplane in to early next decade.
How the deal is structured determines if it is just assets or assets with drivers. If it is the later, many must remember that LUV is hiring, and a lot of the pilots that would be effected are working for a profitable company, not one that has a leg in the grave. It is a very different set of circumstances that these short of things have seen before. The closest one was DAL acquiring the TWA/AMR birds from AMR with pilots on furlough, yet, no pilots came with the jet. If a transaction with LUV resulted in no furloughs, there would be little basis for the deal to include pilots.
Of course the devil is in the details.
So I just assume he is in all of the details and therefore I don't pay attention to no details.
Just ask my wife.
09-05-2011, 07:09 AM
#114
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Nice comment thrown in there (in bold). We do have some folks that are out to lunch on this deal, but with those statements I disagree. I for one would be disappointed if we bring anyone over under the doomsday scenario.
We do our own thing here and have a completely different business model than the legacies. We provide the traveling public with a decent price for our product and receive pretty good wages in return.
Perhaps you should look in the mirror (and your predecessors) when you talk about undercutting. Who has allowed RJ's to take your flying and relegated any future new hires to substandard wages at the regionals? Leaving those same pilots to grovel when it is time to move up.
I think many mistakenly call it undercutting when really it is healthy and fierce competition that many fear. I have no doubt that SWA will have to face the same kind of competition in the future (if we haven't already). When you face adversity you adjust and become more determined. Blaming other pilots for your misfortune is getting rather stale. RAISE YOUR OWN BAR.
The Oscar
acl65 - Are you really a moderator?
We do our own thing here and have a completely different business model than the legacies. We provide the traveling public with a decent price for our product and receive pretty good wages in return.
Perhaps you should look in the mirror (and your predecessors) when you talk about undercutting. Who has allowed RJ's to take your flying and relegated any future new hires to substandard wages at the regionals? Leaving those same pilots to grovel when it is time to move up.
I think many mistakenly call it undercutting when really it is healthy and fierce competition that many fear. I have no doubt that SWA will have to face the same kind of competition in the future (if we haven't already). When you face adversity you adjust and become more determined. Blaming other pilots for your misfortune is getting rather stale. RAISE YOUR OWN BAR.
The Oscar
acl65 - Are you really a moderator?
What I am referring to with SWAPA is first, your CEO is the one offering the proposals for the SLI, not the two unions working together to present a solution. It works great for the SWAPA pilots, that I admit, but it does little for unity of the two pre-merger groups after the event.
I am also referring to the F9 debacle, the fact that SWAPA and its pilots are complicit in the PFT for the 737 type. It lowers SWA's costs, and at the overall expense of the industry.
This may be hyperbole, but I bet that if SWA did not have their pilots paying for a type, and only the fuel hedges as an advantage, the CH11 losses by the other carrier pilots, would have resulted in all groups being at higher pay and benefits today. SWAPA too!
SWAPA finds itself in an interesting position, they are at the top of the heap wrt to passenger airlines and pilot pay. It is not where they want to be, but it is where they are. Their ruthless competition that killed the rest of the industry this last decade is also what making progress difficult there now.
I believe that competition is good, and it delivers a better product, but at some point the competition leads to an inferior product and poor compensation. Being price driven alone has led us here. Pilots are in this for the long haul and it is why whether apart of ALPA or an independent, we must remember that pattern bargaining goes both was, and with out working in concert we experience the stagnation of wages in progression that even today the pilots of SWA are feeling.
I freely admit I did not like the way F9 was dealt with, did not like having to pay for a 73N type, and really did not like that SWA a very profitable company had pilots that were willing to make less than industry standard. Most do not want to look at these facts and how they lead to SWA being the industry darling, but they did. SWA killed its competition, and now that we all have restructured to the SWA model, we all get to live with its results. Some of it is good, but a lot of it is bad.
RJ's are a totally different story. That was the legacies mistake, and one that these pilot groups are paying for today. The willingness to fly all coded metal needs to be the min.
The industry is at a new decision point, and one where SWA is grappling with much of its competition having lower costs. The only benefit SWA currently has is the level of debt is holds. The whole scenario makes it a lot harder for them to compete. Buying AAI was proof positive that the business model that SWA used to propel it to the top of the industry needed to be tweaked majorly. The future will be interesting, and we as pilots need to remember that united we stand and divided we fall. We make more unified than divided. Gains made by a single pilot group that help their company undercut the rest of the industry are very short lived.
Again my opinion only, and I have it because I have watched SWA for 20+ years. I do look forward to the competition with your company though.
Moderating is separate from my opinion. We as mods are free to express our opinions within the bounds of the TOS.
09-05-2011, 07:54 AM
#119
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,046
The phone's powers are limited...
In ICU with a pilot who survived flying flighters over Germany, flight testing the first air force jets, and the early AF side of space exploration. He might not survive smoking. As if anyone needed a reminder, don't smoke. He quit by age 50, yet the damage was done.
He's tough.
At the end of the day .... Your iPhone still sucks.
In ICU with a pilot who survived flying flighters over Germany, flight testing the first air force jets, and the early AF side of space exploration. He might not survive smoking. As if anyone needed a reminder, don't smoke. He quit by age 50, yet the damage was done.
He's tough.
At the end of the day .... Your iPhone still sucks.
09-05-2011, 08:06 AM
#120
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
I am the first one to admit that DAL and DALPA made mistakes wrt to scope.
What I am referring to with SWAPA is first, your CEO is the one offering the proposals for the SLI, not the two unions working together to present a solution. It works great for the SWAPA pilots, that I admit, but it does little for unity of the two pre-merger groups after the event.
I am also referring to the F9 debacle, the fact that SWAPA and its pilots are complicit in the PFT for the 737 type. It lowers SWA's costs, and at the overall expense of the industry.
This may be hyperbole, but I bet that if SWA did not have their pilots paying for a type, and only the fuel hedges as an advantage, the CH11 losses by the other carrier pilots, would have resulted in all groups being at higher pay and benefits today. SWAPA too!
SWAPA finds itself in an interesting position, they are at the top of the heap wrt to passenger airlines and pilot pay. It is not where they want to be, but it is where they are. Their ruthless competition that killed the rest of the industry this last decade is also what making progress difficult there now.
I believe that competition is good, and it delivers a better product, but at some point the competition leads to an inferior product and poor compensation. Being price driven alone has led us here. Pilots are in this for the long haul and it is why whether apart of ALPA or an independent, we must remember that pattern bargaining goes both was, and with out working in concert we experience the stagnation of wages in progression that even today the pilots of SWA are feeling.
I freely admit I did not like the way F9 was dealt with, did not like having to pay for a 73N type, and really did not like that SWA a very profitable company had pilots that were willing to make less than industry standard. Most do not want to look at these facts and how they lead to SWA being the industry darling, but they did. SWA killed its competition, and now that we all have restructured to the SWA model, we all get to live with its results. Some of it is good, but a lot of it is bad.
RJ's are a totally different story. That was the legacies mistake, and one that these pilot groups are paying for today. The willingness to fly all coded metal needs to be the min.
The industry is at a new decision point, and one where SWA is grappling with much of its competition having lower costs. The only benefit SWA currently has is the level of debt is holds. The whole scenario makes it a lot harder for them to compete. Buying AAI was proof positive that the business model that SWA used to propel it to the top of the industry needed to be tweaked majorly. The future will be interesting, and we as pilots need to remember that united we stand and divided we fall. We make more unified than divided. Gains made by a single pilot group that help their company undercut the rest of the industry are very short lived.
Again my opinion only, and I have it because I have watched SWA for 20+ years. I do look forward to the competition with your company though.
Moderating is separate from my opinion. We as mods are free to express our opinions within the bounds of the TOS.
What I am referring to with SWAPA is first, your CEO is the one offering the proposals for the SLI, not the two unions working together to present a solution. It works great for the SWAPA pilots, that I admit, but it does little for unity of the two pre-merger groups after the event.
I am also referring to the F9 debacle, the fact that SWAPA and its pilots are complicit in the PFT for the 737 type. It lowers SWA's costs, and at the overall expense of the industry.
This may be hyperbole, but I bet that if SWA did not have their pilots paying for a type, and only the fuel hedges as an advantage, the CH11 losses by the other carrier pilots, would have resulted in all groups being at higher pay and benefits today. SWAPA too!
SWAPA finds itself in an interesting position, they are at the top of the heap wrt to passenger airlines and pilot pay. It is not where they want to be, but it is where they are. Their ruthless competition that killed the rest of the industry this last decade is also what making progress difficult there now.
I believe that competition is good, and it delivers a better product, but at some point the competition leads to an inferior product and poor compensation. Being price driven alone has led us here. Pilots are in this for the long haul and it is why whether apart of ALPA or an independent, we must remember that pattern bargaining goes both was, and with out working in concert we experience the stagnation of wages in progression that even today the pilots of SWA are feeling.
I freely admit I did not like the way F9 was dealt with, did not like having to pay for a 73N type, and really did not like that SWA a very profitable company had pilots that were willing to make less than industry standard. Most do not want to look at these facts and how they lead to SWA being the industry darling, but they did. SWA killed its competition, and now that we all have restructured to the SWA model, we all get to live with its results. Some of it is good, but a lot of it is bad.
RJ's are a totally different story. That was the legacies mistake, and one that these pilot groups are paying for today. The willingness to fly all coded metal needs to be the min.
The industry is at a new decision point, and one where SWA is grappling with much of its competition having lower costs. The only benefit SWA currently has is the level of debt is holds. The whole scenario makes it a lot harder for them to compete. Buying AAI was proof positive that the business model that SWA used to propel it to the top of the industry needed to be tweaked majorly. The future will be interesting, and we as pilots need to remember that united we stand and divided we fall. We make more unified than divided. Gains made by a single pilot group that help their company undercut the rest of the industry are very short lived.
Again my opinion only, and I have it because I have watched SWA for 20+ years. I do look forward to the competition with your company though.
Moderating is separate from my opinion. We as mods are free to express our opinions within the bounds of the TOS.
I have a few misconceptions I would like to clear up:
1) Being type rated in the aircraft does not significantly lower training costs. SWA's training is somewhat more abbreviated than some of the legacies, but not significantly so. We do more with less, that is the nature of Southwest.
2) What F9 debacle? There were time constraints involved that never would have allowed any negotiated SLI. SWA was asked to remove the stipulation from there proposal or their bid would not be considered. They were not willing to do that.
3) Competition ALWAYS delivers a better product. Sometimes it does deliver a cheaper product which you don't seem to care for, but it is very important to the consumer.
4) No one but Southwest has a SWA (OK Allegiant is similar in some ways) model. You boys are in a completely different system. You fly hub and spoke for Christ's sake. You need to continue that road because that is what feeds your International flying which is where you make your money. We are consistently profitable doing point to point domestic.
5) You say much of the competition has lower costs, please point them out to me. Do you mean they have lower costs comparitive to what their cost structure used to look like or lower as compared to SWA?
6)..." I bet that if SWA did not have their pilots paying for a type, and only the fuel hedges as an advantage, the CH11 losses by the other carrier pilots, would have resulted in all groups being at higher pay and benefits today."... Please explain this statement, I don't get how this would have the effect you speak of.
7) Legacy pilots continue to rail on SWA for low pay. The problem with this is that most of them have been lower payed for more than a decade. As I have said before, I didn't work here then. Since I have been at SWA my compensation package has been industry leading.
8) SWAPA has CHOSEN never to allow outsourced flying. Legacy carriers chose a different route, much to their detriment. Negotiations are a give and take process. I would have gladly accepted a lower than industry standard payscale in return for NO outsourced flying. As I have mentioned, I was not here then. Not outsourcing flying allowed SWA to enjoy 10% growth for many years. In the long run we are much better positioned with regards to our colleagues and have never experienced other groups flying our passengers. This means ALL growth goes to SWA, that is priceless in my opinion.
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