AT and SWA SLI: How to make it work.
08-24-2011, 02:46 PM
#21
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Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: 737 Left Seat
Posts: 1,016
You were offered DOH -2 years and over $2,000,000 in career earnings over what you have at AT. I understand, you deserve more. Somebody from Delta please tell him how insulting that offer was.
08-24-2011, 02:54 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 548
I don't think it is a wet dream. There is not any question that the arbitrated solution will be better, probably by miles, than SL9. The poker game comes in with how much is too much? If it is too much, Guadeloupe will just be liquidated after the asset transfer and the AT pilots will be looking for a job. However, there is a cost associated with that, finding the 50/50 position. I give the AT guys and thier MEC major props for attempting to find it.
08-24-2011, 03:02 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 754
Put somebody at ease regarding their future, and their true nature comes out.
You were offered DOH -2 years and over $2,000,000 in career earnings over what you have at AT. I understand, you deserve more. Somebody from Delta please tell him how insulting that offer was.
You were offered DOH -2 years and over $2,000,000 in career earnings over what you have at AT. I understand, you deserve more. Somebody from Delta please tell him how insulting that offer was.
NO ONE is disputing the value of the compensation being offered. It was generous. It just didn't make up for the mammoth loss of seniority.
08-24-2011, 03:02 PM
#24
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: B777 Capt
Posts: 844
Having read many of the threads and post on this topic I am little confused. Many of the SWA pilots are telling the AT pilots they made a mistake, they are causing their own demise, yadda, yadda, yadda.
What I am having trouble figuring out is why are the SWA pilots angry? If they are truly going to put the screws to the AT pilots because they didn't roll over then shouldn't the SWA pilots be celebrating and not inciting the AT pilots with jabs and barbs?
From the outside looking in it seems like the SWA pilots are nervous that they will not fair so well in arbitration and the only tool they have left in the bag is to attempt to intimidate the AT pilots. Or maybe the SWA pilots just need to feed their superiority complex?
L
What I am having trouble figuring out is why are the SWA pilots angry? If they are truly going to put the screws to the AT pilots because they didn't roll over then shouldn't the SWA pilots be celebrating and not inciting the AT pilots with jabs and barbs?
From the outside looking in it seems like the SWA pilots are nervous that they will not fair so well in arbitration and the only tool they have left in the bag is to attempt to intimidate the AT pilots. Or maybe the SWA pilots just need to feed their superiority complex?
L
08-24-2011, 03:07 PM
#25
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Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 754
Ignore, no. Protest and litigate, probably.
There is an enormous disconnect in SWA culture that needs to be explained. One example is the interview process. Everybody that goes to a SWA interview comes out feeling like they knocked the ball out of the park and got the job, but the large majority fail it. The reason is that the interview team makes you feel at ease, and when you're at ease your true personality comes out (good or bad.)
When I was a new hire, they told us that there was no reason to stress because they'd give us all of the extra training that we needed to get through. They fired one guy after procedure trainer #1. Make the person feel at ease to see their true nature, then take appropriate action.
All that I'm saying is that you are not going to see idle threats coming from management. They generally slant overboard to the positive side, so when it isn't all happiness and "we LUV you," things are far worse than you think. That is far different than most airline management styles, and I think that it is lost in the translation.
Good luck to us all, I wish hardship on nobody.
There is an enormous disconnect in SWA culture that needs to be explained. One example is the interview process. Everybody that goes to a SWA interview comes out feeling like they knocked the ball out of the park and got the job, but the large majority fail it. The reason is that the interview team makes you feel at ease, and when you're at ease your true personality comes out (good or bad.)
When I was a new hire, they told us that there was no reason to stress because they'd give us all of the extra training that we needed to get through. They fired one guy after procedure trainer #1. Make the person feel at ease to see their true nature, then take appropriate action.
All that I'm saying is that you are not going to see idle threats coming from management. They generally slant overboard to the positive side, so when it isn't all happiness and "we LUV you," things are far worse than you think. That is far different than most airline management styles, and I think that it is lost in the translation.
Good luck to us all, I wish hardship on nobody.
BTW- 'protesting and litigating' the result is not abiding by your word and does give us all an excellent measure of your 'true personality'.
08-24-2011, 03:26 PM
#26
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 737 Right
Posts: 1,385
I think SWA a lot of SWA guys seem pizzed because the AT negotiators evidently did not have a phone line to their own dudes.
If this was such a bad deal, why did they sign the AIP and then why did their MEC wait so f'ing long to figure out what it said.
If it takes you three weeks to figure out if you like the deal or not, well no wonder you got out-negotiated. You should know that before you make the offer.
BTW, I would love to find a way to make this work outside of arbitration. I think it would be great if we could get this all done and come on in for the big win. But DOH ain't gonna pass a SWAPA vote...and our negotiators already know that.
If this was such a bad deal, why did they sign the AIP and then why did their MEC wait so f'ing long to figure out what it said.
If it takes you three weeks to figure out if you like the deal or not, well no wonder you got out-negotiated. You should know that before you make the offer.
BTW, I would love to find a way to make this work outside of arbitration. I think it would be great if we could get this all done and come on in for the big win. But DOH ain't gonna pass a SWAPA vote...and our negotiators already know that.
08-24-2011, 03:32 PM
#27
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 737 Right
Posts: 1,385
This is interesting. It's become obvious to me that the Southwest guys have been so isolated from the rest of the world for the last few years that, while they are very good at espousing what they don't want, they haven't got a clue as to what they want.
DOH? No.
Relative Seniority? No.
Punishment for they Air Tran pilots to haze them as if they are pledges in a college fraternity, so as to one day be worthy enough to wear the sacred Greek letters on their chest so they can pick up chicks, only to be accomplished by suffering on the bottom of the seniority list for a period of years, preferably decades? YES!
But, how do you do that without looking bad? You can't.
DOH? No.
Relative Seniority? No.
Punishment for they Air Tran pilots to haze them as if they are pledges in a college fraternity, so as to one day be worthy enough to wear the sacred Greek letters on their chest so they can pick up chicks, only to be accomplished by suffering on the bottom of the seniority list for a period of years, preferably decades? YES!
But, how do you do that without looking bad? You can't.
Why did your negotiators agree to this if it was so far from what your work group wanted? I would direct you anger at them, not the SWAPA guys who were just doing the job they were supposed to do.
08-24-2011, 03:36 PM
#28
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 7,007
$.02 from an outside view.
The best offer SWAPA and GK will make has already been made. If they sweeten the pot at all that will induce the belief that more can be attained. This ship has already sailed.
Mediation. Nothing more than setting up for arbitration. Basically a waste of time, except SWAPA will probably make a lesser offer than SL9.
Arbitration will happen. The minimum award will be SL9, SWAPA already agreed to it once. The maximum will obviously be a straight ratio of about 3 or 4:1 starting with the first WN #1 and first AT at about #4 or 5. and so on. More realistic is a blended ratio based on career projection. But the $1,000,000 question is where the arbitrator views QOL vs career expectation vs dollars. Historically, most arbitrators have ruled with QOL and career expectation over $$$$. I believe this is because money is negotiated every contract vs seniority and QOL are forever.
There is a point where SWAPA will convince GK that the best move going forward for WN would be to transfer AT assets and liquidate the rest of AT. And before you say it can't happen, two words. Midwest Airlines. Not only can it happen, it could be a reality if the arbitrator award is too much. Beware hiding behind McCaskill/Bond, it will be irrelevant if the certificates are never consolidated.
I know it sounds like I am pro SWAPA. Actually, that could not be further from the truth. I think their arrogance and self serving view of themselves is distasteful. It reminds me of the 1990's UA pilots attitudes. Only one way off the mountain.
Be careful what you wish for. Good luck.
The best offer SWAPA and GK will make has already been made. If they sweeten the pot at all that will induce the belief that more can be attained. This ship has already sailed.
Mediation. Nothing more than setting up for arbitration. Basically a waste of time, except SWAPA will probably make a lesser offer than SL9.
Arbitration will happen. The minimum award will be SL9, SWAPA already agreed to it once. The maximum will obviously be a straight ratio of about 3 or 4:1 starting with the first WN #1 and first AT at about #4 or 5. and so on. More realistic is a blended ratio based on career projection. But the $1,000,000 question is where the arbitrator views QOL vs career expectation vs dollars. Historically, most arbitrators have ruled with QOL and career expectation over $$$$. I believe this is because money is negotiated every contract vs seniority and QOL are forever.
There is a point where SWAPA will convince GK that the best move going forward for WN would be to transfer AT assets and liquidate the rest of AT. And before you say it can't happen, two words. Midwest Airlines. Not only can it happen, it could be a reality if the arbitrator award is too much. Beware hiding behind McCaskill/Bond, it will be irrelevant if the certificates are never consolidated.
I know it sounds like I am pro SWAPA. Actually, that could not be further from the truth. I think their arrogance and self serving view of themselves is distasteful. It reminds me of the 1990's UA pilots attitudes. Only one way off the mountain.
Be careful what you wish for. Good luck.
Whale Driver,
Great post. I agree with everything except the part that I bolded above. I don't think the average LUV pilot is arrogant. I know a bunch of them and they are pretty much great guys.
I do agree that there is a "perception" of arrogance which is sustained by a few knuckleheads via internet forums. I have heard the same thing said of DAL Pilots by DCI Pilots, "DAL Pilots won't even look at you in the terminal." I usually try to smile and say hello to all Pilots and have found a lot of commuter pilots don't even notice.
Scoop
08-24-2011, 03:40 PM
#29
Don't want to participate
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: 737 Left Seat
Posts: 1,016
The integration offer was a sliding scale. Around my level, it was less than DOH - 2.
08-24-2011, 03:50 PM
#30
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: MSP7ERB
Posts: 1,886
Put somebody at ease regarding their future, and their true nature comes out.
You were offered DOH -2 years and over $2,000,000 in career earnings over what you have at AT. I understand, you deserve more. Somebody from Delta please tell him how insulting that offer was.
You were offered DOH -2 years and over $2,000,000 in career earnings over what you have at AT. I understand, you deserve more. Somebody from Delta please tell him how insulting that offer was.
Since you and your coworkers are so emotionally attached to this deal, I think you're failing to see a less biased viewpoint that's based on your company's values.
