AirTran MEC Rejects SLI proposal
08-18-2011, 06:17 PM
#74
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Hey D,
It's gonna be based on rates of pay. The only differentiation between the positions and job requirements is compensation. And you can throw work rules and w-2's in there. That will be the deciding factor in the arbitration. Just like it was in our merger with NWA. Similar planes, similar mission. Look at where you sit compared to someone hired well before you at NWA.
Look for a staple of Air Tran junior captains and all first officers if this goes to arbitration. If that's not the result, Gary Kelly will get ugly, and on a scale that hasn't been seen since the Lorenzo days. He's SW born and bred, a true believer. He believes in the culture, think Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men.
If it doesn't go SWAPA's way, I think we'll see a partitioning of AT, with the 717's going away, and the pilots with them. Out of seniority. A la Pan Am.
I think Air Tran Pilots should have gotten a vote.
It's gonna be based on rates of pay. The only differentiation between the positions and job requirements is compensation. And you can throw work rules and w-2's in there. That will be the deciding factor in the arbitration. Just like it was in our merger with NWA. Similar planes, similar mission. Look at where you sit compared to someone hired well before you at NWA.
Look for a staple of Air Tran junior captains and all first officers if this goes to arbitration. If that's not the result, Gary Kelly will get ugly, and on a scale that hasn't been seen since the Lorenzo days. He's SW born and bred, a true believer. He believes in the culture, think Jack Nicholson in A Few Good Men.
If it doesn't go SWAPA's way, I think we'll see a partitioning of AT, with the 717's going away, and the pilots with them. Out of seniority. A la Pan Am.
I think Air Tran Pilots should have gotten a vote.
The DL/NW merger went the way it did because of the much larger amount of widebody aircraft at DL and higher retirements at NW. It had nothing to do with pay rate differentials between like aircraft... which were quite a bit higher at DL.
Im sitting exactly where my relative seniority put me pre-merger within a quarter %.
08-18-2011, 06:28 PM
#75
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
The comedians are out in force tonight. Ha ha!!
So lets go down this little thought experiment path . . . . . Delta management, for some unknown reason decides to purchase one or more of the many Delta/ALPA/Feed carriers.
Those pilots do the same work many of the Delta mainline pilots do. They fly the same routes, carry the same passengers, assume the same level of responsibility every time they strap that seat to their butt. Most importantly, they are even the same union - ALPA.
Before you beat me to the punch line, I know what you are going to say - they are EQUAL to Delta pilots. They are fellow aviators with the same skills, same responsibility, and even the same union.
I just know you and all your socialist comrades at Delta would welcome them with open arms, give them the same relative seniority, pay and benefits, . . . . . after all they are fellow, EQUAL pilots.
Humans are ALL equal, yes, in a fundamental, philosophical sense . . . . after that it is just business in the American, capitalist, free market sense - well, until ALPA gets involved.
So lets go down this little thought experiment path . . . . . Delta management, for some unknown reason decides to purchase one or more of the many Delta/ALPA/Feed carriers.
Those pilots do the same work many of the Delta mainline pilots do. They fly the same routes, carry the same passengers, assume the same level of responsibility every time they strap that seat to their butt. Most importantly, they are even the same union - ALPA.
Before you beat me to the punch line, I know what you are going to say - they are EQUAL to Delta pilots. They are fellow aviators with the same skills, same responsibility, and even the same union.
I just know you and all your socialist comrades at Delta would welcome them with open arms, give them the same relative seniority, pay and benefits, . . . . . after all they are fellow, EQUAL pilots.
Humans are ALL equal, yes, in a fundamental, philosophical sense . . . . after that it is just business in the American, capitalist, free market sense - well, until ALPA gets involved.
You and FL fly the exact same aircraft on the exact same missions (FL actually ventures farther into lucritive international markets which LUV hasn't dared touch).
You're missing the fact that I'm looking at this from a logical standpoint and not from a "I want xx to get screwed" standpoint. That same viewpoint helped me greatly in not having a shock when the nw/dl list came out and has proven accurate in trial for other SLIs as well. It would behoove you to do the same.
08-18-2011, 07:07 PM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 420
Whoops. We fly the very different aircraft and fly the missions that those fly. DCI flies smaller regional aircraft. It would be integrated as such.
You and FL fly the exact same aircraft on the exact same missions (FL actually ventures farther into lucritive international markets which LUV hasn't dared touch).
You're missing the fact that I'm looking at this from a logical standpoint and not from a "I want xx to get screwed" standpoint. That same viewpoint helped me greatly in not having a shock when the nw/dl list came out and has proven accurate in trial for other SLIs as well. It would behoove you to do the same.
You and FL fly the exact same aircraft on the exact same missions (FL actually ventures farther into lucritive international markets which LUV hasn't dared touch).
You're missing the fact that I'm looking at this from a logical standpoint and not from a "I want xx to get screwed" standpoint. That same viewpoint helped me greatly in not having a shock when the nw/dl list came out and has proven accurate in trial for other SLIs as well. It would behoove you to do the same.
For somebody with absolutely zero skin in this game, you sure are doing a lot of behooving . . .
08-18-2011, 07:10 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 533
Let me just add one big picture item to the discussion. Here is the major hypocracy with pilots. We all preach how we want to use labor organization and unions to unite as a profession and "raise the bar" so the next group of pilots can get +1 with their next contract negotiations. But then when we merge with another airline for whatever reason we throw relativity right out the window as we look out for our own best interests.
My lord man, why is this so difficult, you have essentially the exact same group of pilots flying similar equipment, but for some reason SWA pilots feel they are "superior" to the AirTran pilots. News flash, get over it, and merge the list with relative seniority. You lose absolutely nothing and you gain a huge bargaining chip at your next round of contract negotiations.
My lord man, why is this so difficult, you have essentially the exact same group of pilots flying similar equipment, but for some reason SWA pilots feel they are "superior" to the AirTran pilots. News flash, get over it, and merge the list with relative seniority. You lose absolutely nothing and you gain a huge bargaining chip at your next round of contract negotiations.
08-18-2011, 07:18 PM
#78
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
08-18-2011, 07:26 PM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Guppy Capt.
Posts: 1,887
Don't see how it would really matter to JDFlyer's slot. He basically just started at SWA.
Just likes to rant about ALPA. He came from a non-union airline. Let us know how you feel about SWAPA in a few years (not saying SWAPA is bad/ good, just that it is a union also)...
Just likes to rant about ALPA. He came from a non-union airline. Let us know how you feel about SWAPA in a few years (not saying SWAPA is bad/ good, just that it is a union also)...
08-18-2011, 07:32 PM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
And...
so after mild "research" in the search engine of this website:
Fishfreighter 0
FTB 2
not saying that's a good thing. just saying, this got muddied last year and I'm not sure if SWAPA or FL ALPA doesn't like whatever comes next what their recourse is but they may have some.
so after mild "research" in the search engine of this website:
Fishfreighter 0
FTB 2
not saying that's a good thing. just saying, this got muddied last year and I'm not sure if SWAPA or FL ALPA doesn't like whatever comes next what their recourse is but they may have some.
The SLI cannot be undone, it is over. USAPA has delayed the implementation of the list by keeping separate operations, but at the cost of having a sub-RJ contract.
However, seniority lists are negotiable, a fact that was recognized in the quote you mentioned. However, it is difficult to do due to the zero sum nature of the proposition.
So the Ninth Circuit realized that the Nicolau list is the final list from the SLI, but that USAPA can't be sued until they actually finish negotiations for a new list. For instance, what if USAPA moves #2000 to #2001 and vice versa and this is all they change. This would be a deviation from the Nicolau award but what would the damages be? Thus, they say, the final negotiations may result in a list that does not do the harm the plaintiffs fear.
The Ninth Circuit provides the ultimate shot across the bow when they warn of an unquestionable ripe DFR case if they don't represent the interests of ALL the pilots on the list.
So, the SLI is done, it can't be undone. The seniority list is negotiable but is easily subject to a DFR case. That is the law.
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