WHACKMASTER

Agreed. It was give and take, with us being the ones doing almost all of the giving. Info only (as you say) the AIP only slightly improved on DOH-4 years. My personal loss would have been DOH- 3 years and 8 months. Give and take, huh?

Aviator66

Were there no areas of improvement in the AIP for you guys??

SteelHorseFlyer

outside the money and benefits we will already be receiving by becoming southwest pilots? only that our pilots would receive the pay rates sooner. no bennies until you actually got to training. so some pilots staying at airtran until the last available classes would get an extra $80000-100000 in income but not all of us would and it varies from that maximum amount to much less for the people who go sooner. the captain seats were never at risk. an arbitrator will put a fence up. they always do. the atl fence and junior ca so called protections had huge loopholes in them that they refused to close which tells me they planned to exploit them. and our fo's were adding a decade onto their upgrade timeline. even if the arbitrator gives date of hire which is a double digit seniority loss for most of the airtran pilots it will be a 5 year faster upgrade than the aip was. 5 years at an extra $70000 a year is $350000. lets see 100000 now or 350000 in the next ten years? I choose door #2 alex.

OscartheGrouch

WM,

I am also just trying to understand this situation a little better. A year ago both pilot groups had career expectations based on the existing business climate. Now a year later we have both sides calling the other "greedy." I am just sitting here wondering which side is actually telling the truth. What truly were the career expectations of the AT pilot group a year ago and absent the SWA deal how long would it be before those expectations were realized? We have quite a few former AT folks and the career expectations they had at AT were not sufficient to stay there. I am just saying.

I also feel that the now defunct AIP probably had some intentions that many seem to be dismissing under the category of that greed thingy. Why would anyone propose such an offer with the only goal to obtain (or steal) seniority from one side or the other? Just asking.

The Oscar

JohnDeere

Because the grass is always greener?

One of the old AT guys is now an FO at WN. He is currently *****ing in public because he will not be getting a captain seat out of this deal. Really? Please, God, help the man.

SteelHorseFlyer

because they can? or at least they think they can. they tried to steal as much as they thought they could realistically get away with and almost got it. i appreciate your post yeseterday but the press release from swapa the day the results came out says it best 'we tried to buy their seniority from them with the money and job security they were already getting as swa pilots'. nice ammo for arbitration. swapa didnt try to find a fair agreement they tried to buy the airtran pilots seniority with money that wasnt theirs. zero cost to swapa. zero pain felt by swapa pilots their lives didnt change one iota. all pain to airtran pilots.

1Seat 1Engine

If AT pilots come in at DOH or relative, in 10 years the top of the seniority list is dominated by AT pilots.

Some of the seniority boosts at SWA were overstated in the AIP. In no case did anyone have a real increase in seniority of over 9%. I know some of the stuff sent out said 12% when you checked the math, it included SWA new hires who would have increased our seniority regardless.

Additionally you couldn't "use" that seniority since all AT Capts (including those upgraded AFTER the announcement) were protected. In my case there were AT capts who would have been junior to me.

Add in equipment locks for the 717 and a 10 year fence for ATL and that seniority means even less.

In 10 years, when the fences came down, half of the seniority increases would have been eroded by the age differences between groups.

I know it's considered unprofessional to bring up the pay scales, but at some point, money has value. How much money vs how much seniority? On average the SWA contract would bring 2million more than the AT contract. Who knows what the future holds and what could happen tomorrow, but at some point, money has value.

It's also not necessarily true that AT will get the SWA pay rates regardless. That was the company's money that promised 737 rates for 717's. That offer is now officially terminated by the company (as of yesterday). Now it seems probable that the company will offer less pay and require an equipment lock for the 717. Just commenting on what I see SWA doing.

1Seat 1Engine

This AIP wasn't written in a vacuum. There were two sides at the table. Instead of b1tching at our negotiators for getting what they could get, how about you explain to us how your negotiators were evidently so out of touch with your own group as to put their initials to this AIP.

Something doesn't make sense here.

And don't tell me the company threatened you, as it's obvious no one thought this ficticious threat was credible, or we'd all be casting our ratification votes right now.

shoelu

I am in no way trying to flame here, I just want to understand the reasoning. So if all the AT folks were screaming say no to this deal, what was the harm in letting the group as a whole vote it down. It seems to me it would have shown solidarity and a common sense of purpose. A vote that came out 1450 against and 250 (roughly the same percentages as the MEC vote) for the proposal speaks much louder than 7-1. I may be misinterpreting this but it sounds as if the MEC did not trust the membership to make this decision. I felt that on both sides there were no strings attached to the vote. If either one or both sides voted no, the deal was off the table and the arbitration begins. What was the harm in sending it to a vote?

SWAcapt

Wack, don't be so angry, its not healthy. You said that you agreed with your MEC's decision. Be happy with that and move on. Maybe you will be right and the alternative will be better. It is out of both of our hands now. Both sides can present their cases and see what the arbitrator has to say. It will be interesting to see how choosing the alternative to a negotiated settlement, works out. There is actually negotiating term for this called BATNA. Once again, I hope it works out for everyone involved.