AirTran MEC Rejects SLI proposal
08-21-2011, 06:59 PM
#221
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,783
Hey Boogie,
As one who considers myself pretty moderate with the SWA/AT deal, I am amazed at how the extreme positions are driving this discussion. It is rather easy for me since I am pre-1993 and if my seniority is affected it would be contrary to the self described merger/acquisition experts here on APC. I don't rule anything out though, but I promise my family and my sleep patterns will not be affected.
Here is the word as seen by Oscar the troll (I mean oracle) per the request of deere john. This all was to be expected. Which is why I mentioned we should just go to arbitration from the get go. We now have two groups of pilots who distrust one another and it will take years to repair the damage. AT guys have said on this forum that the AIP was just plain WRONG, while the SWA guys on the SWAPA forum say the AIP was (now wait for it....................) just plain WRONG. There you have it. An impass.
Two years ago I had the privilege to ride on DAL's jumpseat a few times. I believe the arbitration agreement had just come out and to a man they said "Except for the real senior guys/gals at NWA and DAL everybody else on the seniority list felt some pain." A little pain for all and everybody could deal with it. Nice folks and very accommodating. Thanks again for the ride.
I do have a question for the AT folks based on the paragraph above - Given the fact that the pilot groups will probably be moving towards arbitration, what pain are the AT pilots going to feel (if both sides should feel some) when arbitration is all said and done? IOW what would be a reasonable amount of pain for your pilot group to consider acceptable.
Now I don't claim to know what tricks are up the sleeve of each pilot group (or management) but the idea that SWA's "culture" will survive is doubtful. For some reason that makes the SWA haters on this forum very happy. You hope and cheer for the demise of a pleasant culture so everybody can be miserable like you. That is pretty pathetic. Bitterness is a difficult pill to swallow and my hope is the AT and SWA guys can swallow it and move ahead. The only thing that I was hoping would happen if the AIP had managed to pass both pilot groups is that the pleasant work environment could be retained. That too is in danger.
I will sit back and watch the show as will those who are cheering for the destruction of SWA. It will be up to the AT folks to come over and contribute and not tear down what has been accomplished. I would also call on my fellow SWA pilots to move forward also. All this to prove the SWA haters wrong. If we don't than they will win. I don't know about you but I hate losing.
The Troll (I mean Oscar)
As one who considers myself pretty moderate with the SWA/AT deal, I am amazed at how the extreme positions are driving this discussion. It is rather easy for me since I am pre-1993 and if my seniority is affected it would be contrary to the self described merger/acquisition experts here on APC. I don't rule anything out though, but I promise my family and my sleep patterns will not be affected.
Here is the word as seen by Oscar the troll (I mean oracle) per the request of deere john. This all was to be expected. Which is why I mentioned we should just go to arbitration from the get go. We now have two groups of pilots who distrust one another and it will take years to repair the damage. AT guys have said on this forum that the AIP was just plain WRONG, while the SWA guys on the SWAPA forum say the AIP was (now wait for it....................) just plain WRONG. There you have it. An impass.
Two years ago I had the privilege to ride on DAL's jumpseat a few times. I believe the arbitration agreement had just come out and to a man they said "Except for the real senior guys/gals at NWA and DAL everybody else on the seniority list felt some pain." A little pain for all and everybody could deal with it. Nice folks and very accommodating. Thanks again for the ride.
I do have a question for the AT folks based on the paragraph above - Given the fact that the pilot groups will probably be moving towards arbitration, what pain are the AT pilots going to feel (if both sides should feel some) when arbitration is all said and done? IOW what would be a reasonable amount of pain for your pilot group to consider acceptable.
Now I don't claim to know what tricks are up the sleeve of each pilot group (or management) but the idea that SWA's "culture" will survive is doubtful. For some reason that makes the SWA haters on this forum very happy. You hope and cheer for the demise of a pleasant culture so everybody can be miserable like you. That is pretty pathetic. Bitterness is a difficult pill to swallow and my hope is the AT and SWA guys can swallow it and move ahead. The only thing that I was hoping would happen if the AIP had managed to pass both pilot groups is that the pleasant work environment could be retained. That too is in danger.
I will sit back and watch the show as will those who are cheering for the destruction of SWA. It will be up to the AT folks to come over and contribute and not tear down what has been accomplished. I would also call on my fellow SWA pilots to move forward also. All this to prove the SWA haters wrong. If we don't than they will win. I don't know about you but I hate losing.
The Troll (I mean Oscar)
As far as the culture being destroyed, please don't even say that. That's a sad thought to say the least. I want you to take what I'm about to write to heart. For all of the disagreements that has been a part of our pilot group regarding the AIP, I will tell you that the one common theme amongst our pilots is that we want to contribute to the success and culture of SWA. Gary's getting a good group of pilots. Honestly.
08-21-2011, 07:01 PM
#222
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: B737/Capt
Posts: 998
You have it wrong. Both sides don't need to feel pain, rather both sides will get a better or stronger company in the end. Your side will now use attorneys to argue what you think is fair, and the other side will do the same. At that point, you can't blame anyone else but the arbitrator, who will decide what he thinks is fair. You can try to force something and delay equal pay for equal planes, but that will just make it worse eventually. Just give up and ride this process out. SWAPA's control on this situation is over.
While I don't think you were trying to slam me (thanks OrionTanker) I believe these are the type of questions that need to be asked and answered. I too believe that we will have a "financially" stronger company in the end, but not necessarily one which everyone looks forward to going to work. That is the part that is disappointing to me. There will be a development of negative attitudes in both directions toward employees just because of where they worked.
When you state that both sides don't need to feel pain it ignores the reality that someone might feel wronged. That is why I thought the proposed AIP, while not perfect provided financial gains, seat protection, etc. in exchange for seniority hits. Again not perfect in the view of many, but no one could say that the AIP didn't create some pain for all (except the senior SWA folks). Thus creating what we called in the Marine Corps - shared misery. A compromise by all to actually create cohesion. Just a fantasy at this point.
It would appear that both sides felt that the pain to be received was unbearable. Creating angst that I feel will last a long time.
While I plan to "ride" this out a Marine never gives up.
The Oscar
P. S. Sorry to be such a downer guys /gals, I will try to be more of an optimist. I really have outlived my callsign and am truly a happy guy. I hope everyone else will mellow with age.
08-21-2011, 07:09 PM
#223
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: KC135 IP
Posts: 398
I hope it turns out well for the Lybian's. Maybe we can get that PAN AM bomber back while we are at it!!
Boogie
08-21-2011, 07:15 PM
#224
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,783
Hey Bill,
While I don't think you were trying to slam me (thanks OrionTanker) I believe these are the type of questions that need to be asked and answered. I too believe that we will have a "financially" stronger company in the end, but not necessarily one which everyone looks forward to going to work. That is the part that is disappointing to me. There will be a development of negative attitudes in both directions toward employees just because of where they worked.
When you state that both sides don't need to feel pain it ignores the reality that someone might feel wronged. That is why I thought the proposed AIP, while not perfect provided financial gains, seat protection, etc. in exchange for seniority hits. Again not perfect in the view of many, but no one could say that the AIP didn't create some pain for all (except the senior SWA folks). Thus creating what we called in the Marine Corps - shared misery. A compromise by all to actually create cohesion. Just a fantasy at this point.
It would appear that both sides felt that the pain to be received was unbearable. Creating angst that I feel will last a long time.
While I plan to "ride" this out a Marine never gives up.
The Oscar
P. S. Sorry to be such a downer guys /gals, I will try to be more of an optimist. I really have outlived my callsign and am truly a happy guy. I hope everyone else will mellow with age.
While I don't think you were trying to slam me (thanks OrionTanker) I believe these are the type of questions that need to be asked and answered. I too believe that we will have a "financially" stronger company in the end, but not necessarily one which everyone looks forward to going to work. That is the part that is disappointing to me. There will be a development of negative attitudes in both directions toward employees just because of where they worked.
When you state that both sides don't need to feel pain it ignores the reality that someone might feel wronged. That is why I thought the proposed AIP, while not perfect provided financial gains, seat protection, etc. in exchange for seniority hits. Again not perfect in the view of many, but no one could say that the AIP didn't create some pain for all (except the senior SWA folks). Thus creating what we called in the Marine Corps - shared misery. A compromise by all to actually create cohesion. Just a fantasy at this point.
It would appear that both sides felt that the pain to be received was unbearable. Creating angst that I feel will last a long time.
While I plan to "ride" this out a Marine never gives up.
The Oscar
P. S. Sorry to be such a downer guys /gals, I will try to be more of an optimist. I really have outlived my callsign and am truly a happy guy. I hope everyone else will mellow with age.
Not trying to stir the pot man, but please explain what kind of "pain" was shared by SWA pilots when 37% of our list was stapled. The average relative seniority loss was 22% and a max loss of 32% (myself included).
And please don't say that we're taking your seats, because we're bring the airplanes, so that's a load of hooha.
08-21-2011, 07:20 PM
#226
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: KC135 IP
Posts: 398
08-21-2011, 07:21 PM
#227
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,783
Oh, and what justification is there for inserting our number one pilot at 1680, when if you put him in at DOH he'd be #849. So where exactly is the shared pain that you speak of?
Disclaimer: I'm not saying that DOH is or is not fair or equitable. Man, I'm starting to think that I would have been a good lawyer.
Disclaimer: I'm not saying that DOH is or is not fair or equitable. Man, I'm starting to think that I would have been a good lawyer.
08-21-2011, 07:39 PM
#228
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
How about DOH or ratio after the first FL pilot is inserted on their DOH or something and to make it fair to SWA pilots who aren't getting the raise that FL pilots will be getting... $50K... each. In unmarked $10 and $20 bills.
Just a thought. It's a $295M payoff to the ones who make SWA work. Where's the LUV for your own Mr. Kelly?
Because a simple pay raise means FL pilots get just that much more which increases the "that's not fair!" issue. At the same time, nobody in their right mind is going to give up seniority as was offered in that TA.
So maybe a simpler SLI can be crafted without arbitration... for the right price?
Just a thought. It's a $295M payoff to the ones who make SWA work. Where's the LUV for your own Mr. Kelly?
Because a simple pay raise means FL pilots get just that much more which increases the "that's not fair!" issue. At the same time, nobody in their right mind is going to give up seniority as was offered in that TA.
So maybe a simpler SLI can be crafted without arbitration... for the right price?
08-21-2011, 08:03 PM
#229
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 29
I could be wrong, but I thought from the bottom of the list was about 50 AT guys then about 220 SW guys then about 650 AT guys then a ratio on up to AT #1 then SW guys. . I'm not sure how that equates to a 37 percent staple to the bottom.
08-21-2011, 09:40 PM
#230
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: The Gup...
Posts: 68
cause the post announcement peeps don't count. that puts the bottom 650 fo's at airtran which is about 37% of our pilot group at the bottom of all the swa pilots. that's also about 80% of our total fo's stapled. good luck getting that from an arbitrated award. just aint gonna happen.
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