Marvin

Interesting. Did the proposed list (the one that was voted down) improve your seniority, either now or in the future?

Is this simply your view, or the view of lots of SWA pilots, that you'll only agree to be bound by binding arbitration if it comes out in your favor?

Just wondering ...

Boogie Nights

I am currently watching the rebels take Tripoli on TV from a deployed location.

Maybe us deployed AT and SWA guys (also here) will be back home soon.

Perhaps we don't need to work so hard at getting every last crumb but can work put this list together and move on. Hopefully Lybia starts producing oil soon (required for $$) to put country back together. This will lower oil prices, lower operating costs and a combined SWA can take names and kick A$$ we can have plenty of growth for all.

See ya soon
B-

OscartheGrouch

Hey Boogie,

As one who considers myself pretty moderate with the SWA/AT deal, I am amazed at how the extreme positions are driving this discussion. It is rather easy for me since I am pre-1993 and if my seniority is affected it would be contrary to the self described merger/acquisition experts here on APC. I don't rule anything out though, but I promise my family and my sleep patterns will not be affected.

Here is the word as seen by Oscar the troll (I mean oracle) per the request of deere john. This all was to be expected. Which is why I mentioned we should just go to arbitration from the get go. We now have two groups of pilots who distrust one another and it will take years to repair the damage. AT guys have said on this forum that the AIP was just plain WRONG, while the SWA guys on the SWAPA forum say the AIP was (now wait for it....................) just plain WRONG. There you have it. An impass.

Two years ago I had the privilege to ride on DAL's jumpseat a few times. I believe the arbitration agreement had just come out and to a man they said "Except for the real senior guys/gals at NWA and DAL everybody else on the seniority list felt some pain." A little pain for all and everybody could deal with it. Nice folks and very accommodating. Thanks again for the ride.

I do have a question for the AT folks based on the paragraph above - Given the fact that the pilot groups will probably be moving towards arbitration, what pain are the AT pilots going to feel (if both sides should feel some) when arbitration is all said and done? IOW what would be a reasonable amount of pain for your pilot group to consider acceptable.

Now I don't claim to know what tricks are up the sleeve of each pilot group (or management) but the idea that SWA's "culture" will survive is doubtful. For some reason that makes the SWA haters on this forum very happy. You hope and cheer for the demise of a pleasant culture so everybody can be miserable like you. That is pretty pathetic. Bitterness is a difficult pill to swallow and my hope is the AT and SWA guys can swallow it and move ahead. The only thing that I was hoping would happen if the AIP had managed to pass both pilot groups is that the pleasant work environment could be retained. That too is in danger.

I will sit back and watch the show as will those who are cheering for the destruction of SWA. It will be up to the AT folks to come over and contribute and not tear down what has been accomplished. I would also call on my fellow SWA pilots to move forward also. All this to prove the SWA haters wrong. If we don't than they will win. I don't know about you but I hate losing.

The Troll (I mean Oscar)

727C47

great post !!!

Marvin

Hey, Boogie -

For you and all the AT and SWA guys deployed around the world -- thanks for your service! Y'all be careful out there!

Marvin

Bill Lumberg

You have it wrong. Both sides don't need to feel pain, rather both sides will get a better or stronger company in the end. Your side will now use attorneys to argue what you think is fair, and the other side will do the same. At that point, you can't blame anyone else but the arbitrator, who will decide what he thinks is fair. You can try to force something and delay equal pay for equal planes, but that will just make it worse eventually. Just give up and ride this process out. SWAPA's control on this situation is over.

OrionTanker

Bill - you have it all wrong. Oscar actually said a very high road statement and you slam him for it. Awesome.

So it is ok to let an arbitrator decide your fate for the next twenty years. Are you a robot? A troll? A complete follower?

Grow a spine.

scambo1

Oscar;

Great post. PMFJI, my input has only tangential value. I'm a DAL guy with no skin in the game, but recently went thru this so, here goes.

I never went to or posted on a forum before our merger announcement...ever. I started to read the postings just to increase my SA on topics that affected me - our merger. There was fear, accusations, rumors took on lives of their own, everyone was flinging crap everywhere...both on the DAL forum and on the ALPA forum (a special place where both DAL and NW pilots could get together and play dodgeball with exploding bags filled with $h1t). IOW there was much tearing of clothes and gnashing of teeth.

I think you are seeing some of that today, but now you are a member of one of the dodgeball teams.

Fast forward to today, former NW folks are good folks, great to meet, helpful, friendly, frankly IMO a different and frequently a better culture than DAL. Pretty much everyone has put the SLI behind us and there is no arguement (certainly from the DAL pilot side), we are a better company and operation than pre-merger.

Hopefully the same result will occur on your side of the fence, I suspect it will.

As far as SWA haters go, I dont think there really are any. In the past, some of your guys would get spooled up over insignificant stuff, so it became kind of a sport to see how far thru the ceiling we could get them to corkscrew. Kind of like in "Big Daddy" where Adam Sandler is teaching the little kid how to throw a stick out in front of the inline skaters to make them wipe out...nothin personal or serious.

Anyway, suffice it to say, most of us outsiders respect the culture SWA has cultivated. We miss it at our companies and hope you can retain it.

Good luck to both groups.

tim123

You are wrong.This is exactly the reason ALPA gave Chautauqua in late 1980's,and this is the reason that they are now Teamsters.

Boogie Nights

Oscar you know far more about SWA culture than I an outsider. As long as you have been there must have been some cultural shifts.
I do know 5 guys (FO’s) who work at SWA. I have worked with them all before in the military. They are all great guys and I would be happy to work with them again. I personally do not have a negative experience with SWA or its guys. SWA pilots have been very accommodating when I have jumped seated and easy to talk to. My friend’s opinions go from flush bid DOH to relative seniority to liking SL-9.
That said they all agree when this is done, it is done. They are all ready to move on.

98% captains I work with at AT are excited about the proposition of working at SWA, they too want to work hard and move forward. Most of the pilots I fly with will and can be a tremendous asset if given the chance.

The generalizations and rhetoric are killing things right now. “All AT pilots are twice rejected SWA applicants” or “SWA pilots are self-righteous Sky Hero’s of the Air”

Everybody needs to settle down and not take this personally. Yes some people will get the short straw (probably me) but there has to be compromise and change. It is business. If situations were reversed I am sure AT guys would have loved to have leadership come in and get the best deal they could for them.
Hey I have a cozy little niche I work at AT. My life is stable and my QOL is a best as I can make it. That said I know it is going to change. I ACCEPT THAT and I want to move on. Many AT guys are insulted by SL-9 and some SWA guys think it was generous. SO WHAT???!! It is business, a marriage. Lets face it, all was not cookies and cream at the BRADY house when Carol and Mike Brady decided putting 6 kids together was a good idea. Both sides have an obligation to do the best they can for their folks. Keep it professional not personal and move the burden forward further and faster as a team after the SLI is done. Life is timing, if you get hosed it is not personal. Adapt and do the best you can.
I commute with Delta a lot and remember some of the wild opening salvos (rumored) from NWA before they merged SL ‘s. Now it is some model merger to be admired.

As to the culture surviving: A company growing by 20% is going to change. Just like a family of 5 adopting a teenager. I am sure at one point everyone knew everyone else by name at SWA. That changed. FA wearing hot pants changed. SWA has continued to adapt and move forward faster and better than most and yet is still one of America’s most desired places to work. This does not need to change. I know the AT pilots are dedicated professional group who have and want to continue to do a kick A$$ job; as are the SWA pilots I have met and worked with.

For those who wish to see the demise of SWA culture, lick their chops at the upcoming SLI debate, who want to see SWA put back on its heels, please GROW UP. Why do you want to be haters? Why do you want to see others fail? Does it make you feel better for your own short comings? Yes SWA has SOME arrogant SOB’s so does AT, but we can’t let them define a culture for almost 8000 pilots.

Look SWAPA and ALPA have some brass knuckle negotiating to do. It will get crazy behind the scenes while we wait to see our list number, kinda like waiting to see what line you got for DEC (unless you bid number 1) when you want to be there for your kids first Christmas. If we keep it respectful, both sides understand they are representing as best they can, we can shake hands when it is done and move on. Someone said months ago that a good merger pi$$es everyone off. They are probably right. If you are thinking “you aint changing my QOL” you are more naïve than I.

Hey, I look forward to joining my new family. I promise to put the toilet seat down, clothes in hamper and to make my bed. I will do my chores and I try to the best of my ability to move SWA forward to the best of my ability.

Lets facilitate our fecund, get our poop in a group, and get our sh ite together and move forward.
I am looking forward to buying the first 10 rounds when this is done.

Hope to fly with you Oscar.
Boogie