RCD73

FTB,

I know you want those 717's, like your dog wants a bone. You might see them in 5 to 7 years.

From a senior SWA Captain. The source is SWA Training dept. The AirTran training dept has been told the same thing.


"Told @ training last week that the 717's are coming at this point. Boeing is the largest holder of AAI debt; they want some $$ for the airplanes and SWA is negotiating heavily (with the leverage of the recent sunroof experience) for controlled costs. Plus Boeing owns the 25 717's parked in AZ and discussions involved to add those to the mix also; again at very attractive leases.

HOWEVER, both 717's, -500's and older 300's are going to retire within the next 5-9 yrs and that presents a problem; 25 x -500's, 130+ -300's and 100+ 717s....lots of replacement aircraft needed from Boeing or other airplane provider. SWA is pressuring/pushing Boeing for a solution; none in sight at this point and that is a concern to SWA leaders.

Confirmed what was said earlier about sims; 1st 717 sim to come 1Q/12 and once on line the next one will get dismantled and come west to join it's brother. Initial estimate is 32 days for 737 AAI pilots and 21 days for 717 AAI pilots at the schoolhouse.

All of the above is subject to change obviously as there is a lot on the plates of those at the training center and GO. AAI operations have many differences than SWA (Autobrake 1...SWA doesn't have that option, SE taxi, etc) operations and some will be looked at for implementation if it makes sense...SWA stopped counting at 650+ differences between AAI 737 operations and SWA operations!!! Hopefully best practices will apply and SWA flight ops is better with any changes."

forgot to bid

Merging is its own special madness too though.

We all know as far as we're concerned in the cockpit the 717 is a great plane, but is it that good? And is it better to have 717s then to say go back to one fleet and use the 735s for the same mission and continue with the flow of new 73NGs into SWA?

What I've heard, from behind the scenes, did not put selling the 717 and getting rid of AT pilots at the same time btw. Well, okay, I've heard that but not from management types.

What has been bandied about was that SWA wants to get rid of the 717s and Delta is interested. They have a huge 737 fleet, we have a huge Douglas fleet that is still growing with a BOD who loves used Douglas equipment.

SWA has plenty of 73NGs on order to absorb losing 717s. I seriously seriously doubt anything would ever happen to AAI pilots if the 717 went out even if it was sooner rather than later. You know before the merger talk it was SWA's growth was decreasing but they still have new ones on order and were investing in the 733s, makes me think the network could withstand a trickle out of 717s.

Also don't forget the big picture of who owns the 717s and how this could be a 3 party deal and not just a SWA-DAL deal. There may be some folks in Chicago willing to make a deal to appease two big customers, one of which is openly calling them a ship without a rudder and may not even be sitting at the table for our future NB replacement.

Spot on.

It would be an incredibly bad idea on so many levels, wouldn't it?

But I've never talked to Elvis about it so I was intrigued that he brought up the same thing and to say it was from an AAI pilot is interesting to me. Means nothing imho, but just interesting to hear it again.

forgot to bid

Used they're more expensive than the 160 seat MD90s, but, they'd have a home. I know AAI used to say that the 73NG beat the 717 not just on a CASM basis but a block hour basis, do they still say that? Because I would imagine that SWA may say, "hey, Delta, if you're dumb enough to take these things..."

I quoted this, not sure why.

Interesting, where else would SWA go to get 73NG quality?

And whats the latest with the 300? For them to only last another 5-9 years seems interesting given the installation of the new cockpits. Unless that was put on hold or its worth it even if they only last 5-9 years.

As far the 717 is concerned, we have 40 year old DC-9s flying around. Those things if they're anything like the 9s then Delta wouldn't see 5-9 years more as a bad thing.

Aren't those sims owned by Boeing?

Who doesn't have single engine taxi? AAI or SWA?

Ooooh. Best practices. Where is Carl? If Carl is reading this, Carl would probably love to chime on best practices between DAL-NWA. Wanna know why?

The story is in order to fast track the already huge merger process through that most expedient of bureaucracies, Delta decided to have NWA switch to DAL practices. < period. Well, with some minor changes here or there.

For DAL pilots there was minimal to in some cases no changes while NWA went through massive changes and not all of them good because NWA may have had the better practice between the two.

But the goal was SOC ASAP and make changes later when it wouldn't delay SOC. After all there is only so much manpower to allocate during a merger. There are some things being changed now. But for a long time it's created great angst on the NWA side to start doing something in a way that didn't seem efficient or as good.

I could see where AAI will have to make a vast majority of the changes even if they are not permanent and will one day possibly be swapped back to AAI's methods. Which to me, seems plausible since I thought AAI was more of a "what Boeing wants is for us to..." operation.

MatthewAMEL

That's kinda true. The CASM for the 737 at AirTran is lower than the 717 (same pay for both planes, 20 fewer seats, and motors that burn about the same amount of gas).


Rumor is SWA is evaluating the Bombardier CS300. It holds 130 seats using the same pitch (32").

I think SWA is waiting to see what Boeing announces at Farnborough 2012 with regards to a NG replacement.



Yes. There were two in Atlanta, but one was just moved to Europe.



I completely agree. AirTran's 737 ops are much more Boeing's ideal of how the NG should be operated. I agree with your assertion that the AT 737 guys will be 're-trained' to operate the SWA way. You have to do it the SWA way. It would pretty difficult to swap from an NG to a -300 in the same trip.

SWA doesn't use single-engine taxi.

Columbia

Yes, but Carl does single engine taxi.

Elvis90

It'll be interesting to see the new merged SWA branch out into different airplanes besides the 737, a big shift in their model, but with growth comes necessary change in how you do business. DAL needs a narrow body replacement, not necessarily the 717:

Delta Contemplating Huge Narrowbody Order | AVIATION WEEK

I think the Airbus 320 NEO with the geared turbofan makes the most practical sense. I fly the Airbus, it's super-reliable & easy to fly. Richard Anderson is highly competent, loves the Airbus, and I'm glad we have him.

AAI has always had a lower CASM than SWA...post-merger we'll see where the costs go.

Just like FTB said, mergers are tough and complicated. DAL & NWA have experienced it, now it's SWA & AAI's turn. The two pilot groups have a very unique set of circumstances to deal with, and like folks have said earlier, if everyone thinks the SLI is slightly unfair, then it's probably a good SLI.

ronnie75

Deleted.....

Elvis90

Dude (one of my favorite words), in 350 hours I've been 100% mission capable rate, zero cancellations, nearly 100% on time for maintenance. I've flown about 9 different aircraft and the Airbus has had the best record for maintenance in my personal experience. 50 more hours and I'm off probation .

Have you commuted on the Airbus? The two jumpseats are helpful for pilot commuters. Are you still on the 73N? How's the maintenance rate been for you?

Elvis90

Oh, and congratulations to SWA in finally leaving Low Cost Carrier status! Welcome to the ranks of the old, outdated legacies.

cant-call-southwest-discount-airlines-wsj: Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance

sailingfun

Delta has no interest in the 717. This forum has created the rumor and keeps it going however there are no talks and no interest from management. Delta has been offered 717's many times at great rates. They never even took a serious look at it. Its not that great a airframe. There are several other options with better costs and fuel burn.
When Delta finally announces its narrow body aircraft buy I would be very surprised if they purchase any aircraft with less then 130 seats. They have always maintained the can fly a 150 seat aircraft for almost the same cost as a 100 seat aircraft hence no need to purchase a smaller jet. This goes back to 1991 prior to the RJ's coming into play.