Southwest Pilots denied by NMB…
08-03-2023, 02:30 PM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,264
what if SWAPA just terminated negotiations. Walked away. And said "call us when you're ready to seriously consider the rewrite we gave you a few years ago"?
It only hurts their efforts to recruit and retain enough pilots to staff the operation. They think they can solve their problems by matching everybody else's 737 pay and nothing else.
Well, I'd be willing to bet their lines at WIA, OBAP, etc would be mighty short if we denied them the ability to even do that.
im in no hurry. Let's walk out of the dealership and see if they don't call in a few days.
It only hurts their efforts to recruit and retain enough pilots to staff the operation. They think they can solve their problems by matching everybody else's 737 pay and nothing else.
Well, I'd be willing to bet their lines at WIA, OBAP, etc would be mighty short if we denied them the ability to even do that.
im in no hurry. Let's walk out of the dealership and see if they don't call in a few days.
Use Google Scholar or Casetext.com to search for the following case and read it: 976 F.2d 541 (1992), ASSOCIATION of FLIGHT ATTENDANTS, AFL-CIO, Plaintiff-Appellee, v. HORIZON AIR INDUSTRIES, INC., Defendant-Appellant.
It offers some pretty good insight on reasonability and good faith bargaining under the RLA.
08-03-2023, 02:50 PM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2016
Posts: 111
Balance sheets are for shareholders, not for employee payroll checks. I would argue SWA is in a position to furlough and retrain faster than any other airline because of one fleet type and minimal retirements.
08-03-2023, 03:57 PM
#24
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2019
Posts: 38
what if SWAPA just terminated negotiations. Walked away. And said "call us when you're ready to seriously consider the rewrite we gave you a few years ago"?
It only hurts their efforts to recruit and retain enough pilots to staff the operation. They think they can solve their problems by matching everybody else's 737 pay and nothing else.
Well, I'd be willing to bet their lines at WIA, OBAP, etc would be mighty short if we denied them the ability to even do that.
im in no hurry. Let's walk out of the dealership and see if they don't call in a few days.
It only hurts their efforts to recruit and retain enough pilots to staff the operation. They think they can solve their problems by matching everybody else's 737 pay and nothing else.
Well, I'd be willing to bet their lines at WIA, OBAP, etc would be mighty short if we denied them the ability to even do that.
im in no hurry. Let's walk out of the dealership and see if they don't call in a few days.
The game plan for managment is to tire us out. Turn us on our union leadership and question their methods. This will inevitably happen with some. The issue I see is those that fall to this mindset will spread this mentality throughout our group creating division among us. Once the division is created leverage will lean into the management corner. At that point pressure will build on our union to push a subpar TA that might or might not get voted in.
Right now our jobs as "union" members is to stay united. Let our leadership do what they need to do to give us the best TA. Once that TA is out to vote on, by all means scrutinize and debate it on its own merit. But until then all I am saying is we will have to be patient and wait. Don't turn on eachother. It only helps them not us.
08-03-2023, 04:13 PM
#25
On Reserve
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: CA
Posts: 15
08-03-2023, 04:15 PM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,264
I'm not sure terminating negotiations is productive. At least not in the eyes of mediation. I do however belive holding firm on our asks demands in mediation is vital. It seems to me obvious that management will pushback hard on our asks for whatever reason they concoct as reasonable. For this reason we must allow our NC to speak for us and continue to push for our asks. They can only accomplish this with our support as a group.
It is well settled, however, that movement toward the position of the other side is not a requirement of good faith bargaining ... Mere insistence on demands that seem extremely harsh to the other side and that a neutral party may consider "hard" is not a violation of bargaining duties.(Independent Federation of Flight Attendants v. TWA, 682 F.Supp. 1003 (1988))
The court said, "In finding a violation of the obligation to bargain in good faith based exclusively on contract proposals the Board is in effect doing that which it is prohibited from doing —sitting in judgment upon the substantive terms of a proposed collective bargaining agreement." Id. n. 7. It is "permissible for a party to engage in ‘bargaining,' utilizing its economic power to its advantage to retain as many rights as possible" subject only to necessity that there be a subjective "desire to reach ultimate agreement." (Independent Federation of Flight Attendants v. TWA, 682 F.Supp. 1003 (1988))
Plaintiff misconceives the scope of the duty "to exert every reasonable effort" to reach an agreement, which does not require one side to accede to the other's proposals:
[M]ovement toward the position of the other side is not a requirement of good faith bargaining.... Mere insistence on demands that seem extremely harsh to the other side and that a neutral party may consider "hard" is not a violation of bargaining duties. An employer may insist on positions consistent with ... its asserted needs, even if the union may consider the proposals greedy.(US Airlines Pilots Association v. US Airways, Inc, and US Airways Group, Inc, 859 F.Supp.2d.283 (2012))
[M]ovement toward the position of the other side is not a requirement of good faith bargaining.... Mere insistence on demands that seem extremely harsh to the other side and that a neutral party may consider "hard" is not a violation of bargaining duties. An employer may insist on positions consistent with ... its asserted needs, even if the union may consider the proposals greedy.(US Airlines Pilots Association v. US Airways, Inc, and US Airways Group, Inc, 859 F.Supp.2d.283 (2012))
08-03-2023, 05:59 PM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,778
I'm not sure terminating negotiations is productive. At least not in the eyes of mediation. I do however belive holding firm on our asks in mediation is vital. It seems to me obvious that management will pushback hard on our asks for whatever reason they concoct as reasonable. For this reason we must allow our NC to speak for us and continue to push for our asks. They can only accomplish this with our support as a group.
The game plan for managment is to tire us out. Turn us on our union leadership and question their methods. This will inevitably happen with some. The issue I see is those that fall to this mindset will spread this mentality throughout our group creating division among us. Once the division is created leverage will lean into the management corner. At that point pressure will build on our union to push a subpar TA that might or might not get voted in.
Right now our jobs as "union" members is to stay united. Let our leadership do what they need to do to give us the best TA. Once that TA is out to vote on, by all means scrutinize and debate it on its own merit. But until then all I am saying is we will have to be patient and wait. Don't turn on eachother. It only helps them not us.
The game plan for managment is to tire us out. Turn us on our union leadership and question their methods. This will inevitably happen with some. The issue I see is those that fall to this mindset will spread this mentality throughout our group creating division among us. Once the division is created leverage will lean into the management corner. At that point pressure will build on our union to push a subpar TA that might or might not get voted in.
Right now our jobs as "union" members is to stay united. Let our leadership do what they need to do to give us the best TA. Once that TA is out to vote on, by all means scrutinize and debate it on its own merit. But until then all I am saying is we will have to be patient and wait. Don't turn on eachother. It only helps them not us.
08-03-2023, 07:53 PM
#28
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,776
NMB told us to stay in mediation... So what? As far as I'm concerned, nothing's changed, and personally, I have zero interest in settling for anything short. If the rumors are true that we don't have many applications, then it's on the company to fix or else their expansion plans go right down the toilet for the lack of crew.
Be patient, stay resilient and no compromises on industry-leading contract in every possible aspect.. and don't just fixate. Just like our NC the company may try to sweeten the pot with rates and retro.... Sorry, not good enough. Industry-leading in every aspect.
Be patient, stay resilient and no compromises on industry-leading contract in every possible aspect.. and don't just fixate. Just like our NC the company may try to sweeten the pot with rates and retro.... Sorry, not good enough. Industry-leading in every aspect.
08-03-2023, 09:59 PM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 137
As most people seem to realize this is in no way unexpected. It was a bit of a long shot to get released this early, but couldn’t hurt to try considering our mediator and the current makeup of the board.
Like Lew said, all release precedent is based almost purely on time. We have to wait, potentially up to a year.
Our asks however, like Lew said, can increase, as inflation continues to increase cost of living.
Support your union, state your (increasing) requirements in the upcoming survey, and go back to business as usual.
There’s nothing confusing about this process, but it does take time. Patience will reward us.
Like Lew said, all release precedent is based almost purely on time. We have to wait, potentially up to a year.
Our asks however, like Lew said, can increase, as inflation continues to increase cost of living.
Support your union, state your (increasing) requirements in the upcoming survey, and go back to business as usual.
There’s nothing confusing about this process, but it does take time. Patience will reward us.
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