Southwest Pilots denied by NMB…
08-03-2023, 05:03 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,670
Completely expected. This was a signal from SWAPA to the NMB. Nothing more. The union did not expect to get released this time. Next time will be different. The company will continue to drag this out until it starts costing them more than they are making by delaying. Period. Dot. They quite simply do not care.
08-03-2023, 05:05 AM
#12
gets time off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,234
08-03-2023, 06:14 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,030
There are too many pilots going above and beyond and captains rushing to get out on time, then complaining about the pace of negotiations.
Hopefully this will be the catalyst needed for pilots to give up.
08-03-2023, 09:18 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,264
Here's what I said about a release back on June 29, right after we had requested a release:
Knowing now that the NMB did not release us indicates that we probably really were not as close to an impasse as SWAPA thought we were when we requested a release. We also are currently a little over a year away from hitting the 694-day point for average "time in mediation" that would mark the threshold beyond which the NMB could begin to feel pressure based on time in mediation, provided that we have played the RLA game correctly, to release us.
Here are a couple of quotes from cases that tell me the NMB not releasing us right now is not a big deal, but instead, is just the NMB doing its thing, attempting to create pressure on us to capitulate:
IMO, it's really hard to say without being in the negotiating room with the NC if it was premature or not. Attempting to read the tea leaves, given the status updates we've received over the last several months and our continued willingness to "help pilots by helping the company" with agreements like the LRF deal we just inked, my impression is that we are nowhere near an impasse. However, that may not, in reality, be the case if the NC and SWAPA leadership have genuine reason to believe we are at a true impasse. The request for release from mediation indicates that an impasse may truly exist.
Here are a couple of quotes from cases that tell me the NMB not releasing us right now is not a big deal, but instead, is just the NMB doing its thing, attempting to create pressure on us to capitulate:
Often a mediator will let an unusually stubborn party sit with the status quo in place until the party is ready to negotiate seriously, knowing that the outcome in other mediations may influence the parties in a related dispute. This is a basic tactic in mediation and, since it poses one possible legitimate basis for holding this dispute in mediation, the court may not disturb the decision absent indications unrelated to the period of time in mediation that evince patent official bad faith.
An NMB member may legitimately indicate an unwillingness to move a dispute out of mediation in order to pressure the parties to settle. The Board may let a case sit as a mediation tactic, and it may tell parties that it will let a case sit. Congress chose this necessarily protracted means for resolving railroad labor disputes.(Local 808 v. NMB, 888 F.2d 1428 (1989))
An NMB member may legitimately indicate an unwillingness to move a dispute out of mediation in order to pressure the parties to settle. The Board may let a case sit as a mediation tactic, and it may tell parties that it will let a case sit. Congress chose this necessarily protracted means for resolving railroad labor disputes.(Local 808 v. NMB, 888 F.2d 1428 (1989))
The NMB's inaction, however, may serve as a mediation technique because "withholding of the proffer is a `crucial' tool for encouraging compromise and settlement." Local 808, 888 F.2d at 1443. For example, "[a]n NMB member may legitimately indicate an unwillingness to move a dispute out of mediation in order to pressure the parties to settle." Id. at 1441. In other words, "the actions of the NMB are easily explained as common mechanisms for bringing recalcitrant parties to the table." (IAMAW v. NMB 374 F.Supp.2d 135 (2005))
08-03-2023, 09:22 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,803
……and no. Things won’t change either. Pathetic. Some people (most) just don’t “get it”.
🔥👇
08-03-2023, 01:46 PM
#18
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2019
Posts: 38
I really can't say I am surprised with this news. However, it might work to our advantage. As another had mentioned it puts us on the radar of the NMB as a subject of interest to keep an eye out on. Perhaps if pushes them to allocate more resources to our case that we currently do not have.
As far as we go, I think it is reasonable to assume that this will drag out for a while. I want an excellent contract as much as anyone of you. With that being said, it is important to point out that this all plays into the hands of our opposition. They now have the upper hand in dragging this out. What we need to do now is endure. Letting fatuige settle into this now would be a sure way to weaken our NC's position at the table. This a blinking contest that will ultimately backfire on the company if we don't blink first. It's going to suck, but enduring this is how we win.
If we as a group voted yes on a SAV. And we voted in the mass majority YES. For that vote to mean anything other than posturing requires us to endure whatever it takes to get to a strike. Don't turn on our union now because that's what management wants to happen.
Endure.
As far as we go, I think it is reasonable to assume that this will drag out for a while. I want an excellent contract as much as anyone of you. With that being said, it is important to point out that this all plays into the hands of our opposition. They now have the upper hand in dragging this out. What we need to do now is endure. Letting fatuige settle into this now would be a sure way to weaken our NC's position at the table. This a blinking contest that will ultimately backfire on the company if we don't blink first. It's going to suck, but enduring this is how we win.
If we as a group voted yes on a SAV. And we voted in the mass majority YES. For that vote to mean anything other than posturing requires us to endure whatever it takes to get to a strike. Don't turn on our union now because that's what management wants to happen.
Endure.
08-03-2023, 02:14 PM
#19
Furloughed Again?!
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Boeing 737
Posts: 4,804
I really can't say I am surprised with this news. However, it might work to our advantage. As another had mentioned it puts us on the radar of the NMB as a subject of interest to keep an eye out on. Perhaps if pushes them to allocate more resources to our case that we currently do not have.
As far as we go, I think it is reasonable to assume that this will drag out for a while. I want an excellent contract as much as anyone of you. With that being said, it is important to point out that this all plays into the hands of our opposition. They now have the upper hand in dragging this out. What we need to do now is endure. Letting fatuige settle into this now would be a sure way to weaken our NC's position at the table. This a blinking contest that will ultimately backfire on the company if we don't blink first. It's going to suck, but enduring this is how we win.
If we as a group voted yes on a SAV. And we voted in the mass majority YES. For that vote to mean anything other than posturing requires us to endure whatever it takes to get to a strike. Don't turn on our union now because that's what management wants to happen.
Endure.
As far as we go, I think it is reasonable to assume that this will drag out for a while. I want an excellent contract as much as anyone of you. With that being said, it is important to point out that this all plays into the hands of our opposition. They now have the upper hand in dragging this out. What we need to do now is endure. Letting fatuige settle into this now would be a sure way to weaken our NC's position at the table. This a blinking contest that will ultimately backfire on the company if we don't blink first. It's going to suck, but enduring this is how we win.
If we as a group voted yes on a SAV. And we voted in the mass majority YES. For that vote to mean anything other than posturing requires us to endure whatever it takes to get to a strike. Don't turn on our union now because that's what management wants to happen.
Endure.
It only hurts their efforts to recruit and retain enough pilots to staff the operation. They think they can solve their problems by matching everybody else's 737 pay and nothing else.
Well, I'd be willing to bet their lines at WIA, OBAP, etc would be mighty short if we denied them the ability to even do that.
im in no hurry. Let's walk out of the dealership and see if they don't call in a few days.
08-03-2023, 02:22 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 312
what if SWAPA just terminated negotiations. Walked away. And said "call us when you're ready to seriously consider the rewrite we gave you a few years ago"?
It only hurts their efforts to recruit and retain enough pilots to staff the operation. They think they can solve their problems by matching everybody else's 737 pay and nothing else.
Well, I'd be willing to bet their lines at WIA, OBAP, etc would be mighty short if we denied them the ability to even do that.
im in no hurry. Let's walk out of the dealership and see if they don't call in a few days.
It only hurts their efforts to recruit and retain enough pilots to staff the operation. They think they can solve their problems by matching everybody else's 737 pay and nothing else.
Well, I'd be willing to bet their lines at WIA, OBAP, etc would be mighty short if we denied them the ability to even do that.
im in no hurry. Let's walk out of the dealership and see if they don't call in a few days.
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