Brickfire

The abstract question of whether a mediation can be continued "indefinitely" is interesting ... but the relevant question is what happens when one party wants a release and the mediator says "not yet"

Do you sue the mediator? How long would that take to get a release if, as you state
1) a mediator doesn't have unlimited discretion to extend mediation, and
2) a mediator is abusing their discretion

You gotta assume that any mediation you're in is indefinite because you don't have any practical control over when it ends.

chrisreedrules

No I’m not, I’m merely pointing out that there are a multitude of possibilities and most of them don’t equate to pilots remaining in their current seats flying to 24-48 hour international overnights. We don’t know what will happen. Personally I don’t think age 67 will pass in the final version of the bill. One day? Probably. Today? No.

Mozam

I am just ribbing you, I think it could go either way. The airlines give a lot of money to capital hill. I do not get why anyone in Washington would be for raising it . All they care about is donations and the amount.

waterskisabersw

The mediator does not decide whether or not to release. The NMB does, but that doesn't change the answer to your question too much.

As was referenced in Lew's post earlier, yes, you can sue to get released and there is case law that you can use to support your case. How long would that process take? It would depend on court availability I suppose. If the NMB refuses to respond or disagrees that we are at an impasse, then we continue to request release as long as we feel like we are at an impasse. My guess is that swapa would start to consider a lawsuit once we reach or exceed the average time spent in meditation.

As for your last statement, you can assume that you will be in mediation for an indeterminate amount of time, but not an indefinite amount of time. Assuming you are using the levers of the RLA properly, and assuming you are indeed at an impasse, there is no legal basis for the NMB to "ice" you for an time unreasonably longer than the average time in meditation. How long "unreasonably" means will be up to three arguments of both sides as determined by the courts.

Lewbronski

Between 2018 and when the Delta pilots ratified their TA in March of this year, what was the average time in mediation of all cases handled by the NMB? Why is that number important?

How long were the railroad unions in mediation last year before they were released? What was the political composition of the NMB when that occurred? How did the NMB vote on the railroad unions’ release?

How long was SWAPA in mediation last cycle? Why didn’t they get released? What about ABX?

How long had Spirit been in mediation when they got released?

Do the courts have authority over the NMB to force them to release a dispute from mediation? If so, what is the legal test that is applied to determine if a court will force the NMB to release a dispute from mediation?

What are the implications if the NMB has the power to keep a dispute in mediation indefinitely/forever?

Brickfire

That’s my point: how long would it take to obtain judicial release over the objections of the nlrb. Long enough that you have to assume it’s indefinite.

Yes you might eventually get released by the court but there’s zero reliable or predictable timeline.

Rseat

Thank you for those numbers. I agree, not much action on our side of the house. But like someone mentioned earlier, the concern is that Delta wouldn’t have as much of an incentive to poach our pilots anymore! The Legacies would get some relief and thus, leave more bodies available for SWA.

However, someone had a good synopsis as to why it would make it potentially too expensive and a training nightmare for the Legacies. Each aircraft move by a pilot causes other training events down the line. The presumption is that senior citizens would not be allowed to be Captain on a back of the clock ocean crossing. I think……

Lewbronski

You don’t seem to have looked into the issue very deeply nor have thought very much about how all of the factors come together to influence a release decision.

You sound like you’re simply offering your mostly uninformed hot take on information you’ve soaked up via osmosis over the years.

sailingfun

Cut and paste from 3 sources one of which was the NMB. The key is that if you are somewhat near the recent DAL and UAL agreements you are in the zone of reasonableness and should be released. Not sure why that is FUD. The NMB understands and endorses pattern bargaining.